Techniques you feel are outdated or just plain bad

[Bruce Calavera]

He's saying you should learn the basic one first to practice the mechanics.

My bad, I'm at work right now and I guess I didn't read that all the way through. I do agree that it helps with learning other armbars but as a technique on it's own I still don't see its effectiveness.

 

[boboplata***]

bicep crusher. my reaction would always be "really? you wanna go there?" & shrug it off. i think i OD'd on bicep crusher for the 1st few years i grappled.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I think it's more of a percentage thing than techniques working or not working. Guard armbar works in those rare situations when someone gives you the arm...it works in the right situation, but it's rare that you find yourself in that situation (against a skilled opponent). I only sweep form guard, I never try for subs, because for me they seem low percentage and a waste of effort against good players. Ryan Hall has a good interview on this very subject, search the forums and you'll find the link.

 

[HardEight]

Nothing is high percentage at top level.
But tbh I see just as many basic armbars from guard, triangles and RNC's as I do anything else.

 

[iiHenrii]

About a year ago I was the guy in the gym trying to create the most ridiculous attribute based techniques you could imagine and often times they would work just out of the suprise factor when I'd full nelson someone with my legs or go inverted for no reason. This stage helped me learning something. The shittier the technique the faster everyone is to negate or counter it.

Now I'm in a stage where I'm only doing techniques that are high percentage and my focus is to increase the positive outcomes of already time proven techniques. My goal isn't to win, it's to win without breaking a sweat and to give my opponent no room for hope. If it wouldn't work against Marcelo, Jacare, or Roger why bother putting it into your game?

All of this being said what techniques do you feel are too high risk or violate what Jiu Jitsu should be; conservation of energy. I'll start. I feel the basic armbar from guard is an outdated technique. Each step in the technique has an extremely effective counter. Sure there are plenty of recounters to those but unless you're specifcally doing the armbar to setup say...a flower sweep it's a flawed technique. I've only ever see someone pull it off on someone who was either A) much weaker or B) much less experienced. Do I think it's impossible to setup an armbar from guard? No, but I do feel the traditional armbar should be updated or discarded.

interesting read

but

BJJ matches can last for up to what feels like forever. you have to be able to attempt a sweep or submission and move on when it doesnt work out before you use to much energy. thats just how it goes.

 

[op3r]

everybody is doing the basics even your instructor is doing the basics.

Most high percentage submission is by the basic techniques.

 

[crocoppertones]

Rubber Guard is for women and wusses.


doesn't work anyway

good way to get your leg broke

 

[OrcishFighter]

If you had said, I dont like practicing low percentage fancy stuff that almost never work I would have agreeed with you 100% but armbar from guard??? are you serious...:icon_conf

 

[countlphie]

Set ups that go directly towards a submission/sweep rarely work against people of equal skill. Think about how hard it is to pull off a technique on somebody who was in class with you that same day. He knows it's coming - that's why it's not going to work.

As you progress you HAVE to set up things by threatening something else first. if you are yanking on his elbow to cross your centerline he knows the armbar from guard is coming. This is the same as if you're in spider guard and if you open up to start to let him pass to go for the sweep, that first sweep isn't going to work because he knows what you're trying to do.

if you're going to do the arm bar from the guard, yes, the basic set up doesn't work but that's because it's not a real set up. you're just doing the submission/technique. if you want to do an actual set up, you have to threaten something else to break his posture, or make him forget about his arm, or whatever. You have to chain moves together - and if you do something else first to bait him into forgetting where he put his arm while in your guard, then the basic arm bar from guard will be there for the taking.

 

[MUFC]

I'm not sure how you can mention the armbar from guard in your original post. One of the three you listed performed said technique on another from the three grapplers listed.

 

[countlphie]

also i want to add -

that basic arm bar from guard includes so many good principles about having a good guard (strong control, breaking posture/balance with your legs, good hip movement) that I believe that drilling it will make your overall closed guard better. in fact I always make sure I do 30 or 40 of them once or twice a week, and whenever I get one of my friends to start BJJ I make sure they drill the shit out of this.

 

[countlphie]

bicep crusher. my reaction would always be "really? you wanna go there?" & shrug it off. i think i OD'd on bicep crusher for the 1st few years i grappled.

wait you're saying the bicep crusher/slicer doesn't work?

 

[[Tycho?]]

wait you're saying the bicep crusher/slicer doesn't work?

I could swear I was reading a thread yesterday where people were talking about getting their arms broken with bicep slicers.

 

[ijustwannasurf]

Learning basics is all about learning body mechanics. Once you understand what your body has to do to accomplish the technique, you'll find many ways to turn that simple 1-2-3-4 armbar into setups from everywhere.

 

[chirpin4th]

About a year ago I was the guy in the gym trying to create the most ridiculous attribute based techniques you could imagine and often times they would work just out of the suprise factor when I'd full nelson someone with my legs or go inverted for no reason. This stage helped me learning something. The shittier the technique the faster everyone is to negate or counter it.

Now I'm in a stage where I'm only doing techniques that are high percentage and my focus is to increase the positive outcomes of already time proven techniques. My goal isn't to win, it's to win without breaking a sweat and to give my opponent no room for hope. If it wouldn't work against Marcelo, Jacare, or Roger why bother putting it into your game?

All of this being said what techniques do you feel are too high risk or violate what Jiu Jitsu should be; conservation of energy. I'll start. I feel the basic armbar from guard is an outdated technique. Each step in the technique has an extremely effective counter. Sure there are plenty of recounters to those but unless you're specifcally doing the armbar to setup say...a flower sweep it's a flawed technique. I've only ever see someone pull it off on someone who was either A) much weaker or B) much less experienced. Do I think it's impossible to setup an armbar from guard? No, but I do feel the traditional armbar should be updated or discarded.

The direction your going in is just silly...
Do you really think there is x many techniques that anyone could learn that would work on "Marcelo, Jacare, and Roger"?

Different moves work better (or are more natural) on or for different people. It's about learning how you and your opponent move.

Btw.. the "traditional armbar" has been updated.. there are soooo many options after attacking the arm, depending on how your opponent defends.

I think everyone who has trained for a while has there "fancy moves" that they do when they know there oppenent is outclassed. But this just makes bjj fun! Doesn't mean you should discard them.

 

[dza76wutang]

wait you're saying the bicep crusher/slicer doesn't work?

It's just a pain move, if you wait it out they'll get tired and you can pass/counter. :icon_twis

On topic: Focusing on high percentage moves seems to have the best ROI, however, don't forget that low-percentage moves can only become high-percentage moves if you train the shit out of them. Armbar from mount was REALLY low percentage for me as a white belt, but I practiced it until it became much higher percentage for me. Kimura from everywhere is probably the only move I'd consider "natural" for me, so if I just ignored all the non-kimuras I'd be in an awkward situation today. Some moves are harder for certain people than others (I may become one of the first black belts unable to do a triangle from guard during live rolling ever lol) but conversely some are easier (kimura for me). I figure (naively perhaps) I won't get the same ROI from forcing myself to be decent at triangles that I would get from improving my other stuff, so I kind of ignore them. From a tournament mentality, prioritization/exclusion seems optimal; from a future teacher of BJJ perspective this is sub-optimal, in my opinion.

 

[BWC]

I think sometimes people think of these things the wrong way. Guys at the top of the heap don't get caught because of some crazy setup or new sub they've never seen. They caught because of fatigue mostly. When a guy of Roger's size is ragdolling for an entire match and then catches you with a simple armbar or Marcelo is running circles around you, they just are mentally and physically tired. It's like the old saying, "hit a black belt once and he's a brown belt." Guys just lose concentration and get sloppy when they're tired and/or hurt...

 

[Cratylus]

This is a good thread. Well worth my time.

 

[Knuckles69]

I think the old school guillotine has out lived it's usefulness. The modern day improvements in the guillotine have made the old way of doing the move largely ineffective.

I still think it needs to be taught, but purely for defensive purposes. The guillotine where one lifts their arms up and push the hips in is something that a person with little or no training would still try. So learning to defend it is important, but teaching that method as a reliable way of finishing is over.

Similar with the standard arm bar. There are two sides to the coin. One is offensive, but the other is defensive. We teach both so that the mechanics and principles of both are exaggerated so that we can take those principles and move forward and add finer points that make the move effective against more skilled opponents and training partners. Just because a move doesn't work consistently on more skilled opponents doesn't mean it shouldn't be taught in it's infant form. It just means you build your game up around that simple move and add things that make it work.

 

[JerseyTrash]

Roger Gracie proves this entire thread wrong. He armbars other blackbelts from the guard all the time. The cross collar choke from the mount is incredibly easy to block, but he still taps other blackbelts with it.