Tax Cuts and Jobs Act

Not sure if this is sarcasm or not.

Definitely not sarcasm. I'd love to live to see a flat tax system implemented however morally the best system would be a regressive system. Unfortunately regressive is impossible since we waste so much money on unnecessary wars, foreign aid, and entitlements like Medicaid.
 
Regardless of who the tax cuts benefit you can't deny that the moral thing to do is to cut taxes for the upper class. Right now the upper class pays a disproportionate amount of taxes and suffer extreme tax inequality. It doesn't matter if they can afford it or not. When the top 20% pays 93% of taxes something is terribly wrong.
I'm probably the only member of this forum who's in the upper upper class and am against these tax cuts if it raises taxes on anyone else.
 
Nobody is ducking shit. You live in a fantasy world where politicians who are dependent on these donors don't change their minds to get that money. Everyone can clearly see how flawed your point of view is. There is even proof of it with your favorite Democrat.

Who's my favorite Democrat? Maybe Jerry Brown? I don't know. Don't really keep a list.

And the bit you quoted is Warren making a mistake.
 
Wow, its almost as if getting the lobbies out of Washington would be in the best interest of the people.

i think its important to be able to lobby. industry, and other special interests, need to be able to make their voices heard.

however, atm, they have far far far far far far too much influence. and thanks to citizens united, theyre more able to hide their influence than ever.
 
Regardless of who the tax cuts benefit you can't deny that the moral thing to do is to cut taxes for the upper class. Right now the upper class pays a disproportionate amount of taxes and suffer extreme tax inequality. It doesn't matter if they can afford it or not. When the top 20% pays 93% of taxes something is terribly wrong.

When they own 93% of the wealth? Dafuq? If you own 93% of the wealth the system benefits you more and you have more skin in the game. You should pay the same in taxes.

How the fvk is someone who hoards all the pie paying less taxes then people who get crumbs, fair?
 
Definitely not sarcasm. I'd love to live to see a flat tax system implemented however morally the best system would be a regressive system. Unfortunately regressive is impossible since we waste so much money on unnecessary wars, foreign aid, and entitlements like Medicaid.
Ok, thanks for clarifying. However, I'll disagree that the wealthy are the ones "morally" getting screwed in the U.S.
 
To be clear, we're talking about the Senate.

@Lead, looks like we have a bet.

From the politico article I posted.

Cuellar and other conservative Democrats were courted by the White House on taxes earlier this year but were excluded from House Republicans’ bill writing process.

In the Senate, red-state Democrats up for reelection like Joe Manchin of West Virginia, Heidi Heitkamp of North Dakota, and Joe Donnelly of Indiana are considered gettable for Republicans on an upper-chamber tax bill that’s expected to come out next week.

“I’m not ruling out supporting it — heck, no,” Manchin said in an interview. “If I find a pathway forward, I’ll be for it.”

Campaign contributions don't really decide elections beyond a certain minimum level, though, particularly if an incumbent is running.

Look, I agree that policy in general is tilted toward the interests of the rich. I don't see campaign contributions being a part of that. For one thing, almost everyone who seriously runs for office is rich themselves, and mostly or exclusively only knows other rich or at least upper-middle people in an intimate way. And then, yeah, big donors are going to get their calls taken, but what happens after those calls begin is what's really important. Think of how your own views are shaped.

Politicians being rich themselves is the most ridiculous argument ever because none of those politicians are going to finance their own campaign or else they would go broke.

It's simple really. Organizations like the NRA keep our gun laws the same and telecommunication companies like AT&T and Comcast are more than likely going to be successful in killing net neutrality. The last two donate a ton of money to both Republicans and Democrats.

And hey look I found a bunch of reading material for you that you won't even glance at!

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/fix-money-in-politics/473214/

http://www.scholarsstrategynetwork.org/how-money-corrupts-american-politics

https://news.stanford.edu/news/2012/may/money-influence-elections-052112.html

If money didn't matter in politics then websites like this wouldn't exist.

https://www.opensecrets.org/influence/

And the bit you quoted is Warren making a mistake.

Nice proof you cite there. It's getting easier and easier to knock your logic into the dirt.
 
I think getting money out of politics is something both the left and right can agree on.... I hope
if its something they want it would have been done already, a small percentage want it out, the rest are stuffing themselves at the trough
 
Campaign contributions don't really decide elections beyond a certain minimum level, though, particularly if an incumbent is running.

Look, I agree that policy in general is tilted toward the interests of the rich. I don't see campaign contributions being a part of that. For one thing, almost everyone who seriously runs for office is rich themselves, and mostly or exclusively only knows other rich or at least upper-middle people in an intimate way. And then, yeah, big donors are going to get their calls taken, but what happens after those calls begin is what's really important. Think of how your own views are shaped.

No offense, but this ties to discussions I've had with @IngaVovchanchyn and @Cajun. People who really study what active steps people can take to make winning elections more likely are pretty much stumped. William Goldman's summary of the entertainment industry ("nobody knows anything") applies to the political one, too. Studies that attempt to answer whether this technique or that one actually works almost always show being "no, or the effect is too small to be identified." But regular people are really convinced that they know what works (generally--do what I like, and you'll win elections). I think it's really an issue where the more you know, the more humble you are.

And the variables may be too many to predict in terms of actually winning. The strategies employed by both sides are obviously educated ones but do not guarantee a win for either side. I do not know what works of course that will result in an absolute win. It is all speculation. Hillary was picked to win by many experts based on what they were seeing but that did not happen. There are no absolutes in politics perhaps as there are none in lets say the stock market. There are better strategies employed but those do not necessarily guarantee a win.
 
Not interested in your arguments for why you think Democratic senators will support the cuts. We have a bet, and that will settle it.

Politicians being rich themselves is the most ridiculous argument ever because none of those politicians are going to finance their own campaign or else they would go broke.

Doesn't appear that you understood the point. I'm saying that socialization is a better candidate as a factor for why policy is tilted toward the rich than campaign contributions. Even if you disagree, try to remember that that is what you're disagreeing with.

Nice proof you cite there. It's getting easier and easier to knock your logic into the dirt.

You can search through my post history. Commented at length on that issue.
 
It doesn't matter if they feel the same "impact". Making one group of people pay more while they benefit the same is morally repugnant. There is no wealth pie. Wealth is earned based on hard work and intelligence. Anyone can accumulate wealth however keeping it is getting harder as the upper class continue to get screwed in order to spoon feed the lazy lower class.
I'm not sure if you're trolling or being ignorant. Wealth is not distributed evenly across the board, with lion's share going to a small group at the top. As such, they should also shoulder an increased share of the tax burden. Wealth does not equate to hard work. Inherited wealth requires very little work on the person's behalf other than being born to the right parents. You sound like a trickle down economics soundbite tbh.
 
@theBLADE1, pretty sure you didn't read your own links. Here's from one of them:

http://www.scholarsstrategynetwork.org/how-money-corrupts-american-politics

Money cannot always buy election results; weak candidates often lose even when they outspend their opponents. Nor is outright bribery very common; elected officeholders rarely sell specific votes directly Yet the perfectly legal flood of money that pervades American politics has fundamentally corrupting effects.

Then the writer proceeds to describe ways that money can actually influence politics that are in line with what I've been saying.

The Atlantic piece also backs me up more than you.
 
Joe Manchin of West Virginia, Heidi Heitkamp of North Dakota, and Joe Donnelly of Indiana are considered gettable for Republicans. But all I need is 1 to beat Jack.

BTW I'm hope I'm wrong. I want Democrats to have a spine but anyone with half a brain knows that don't. There are too many centrist/corporate/opportunist Democrats holding office as it is which is a problem with the party overall.

Do you have anything more to add?
I have a ton to say about the current tax bill, what would you like to discuss?

My bet is the bill in the current form will get zero Democrat votes. It raises taxes on some middle and upper middle class voters, it raises taxes on folks living in blue states (if they remove the SALT deduction) and it increases the deficits over a decade to $1.5T, which is conservative, so that primarily large corporations, large pass-throughs and wealthy heirs get a cut. There is nothing in this bill that aligns with Democrats' values or positions, even the small stuff.

I just thought it was lame that you argued so passionately with Jack to say one would vote for the tax plan.
 
I think getting money out of politics is something both the left and right can agree on.... I hope

Actually, the Right pushed hard in favor of Citizens United which allowed corporations donate huge amounts of money.
 
When they own 93% of the wealth? Dafuq? If you own 93% of the wealth the system benefits you more and you have more skin in the game. You should pay the same in taxes.

How the fvk is someone who hoards all the pie paying less taxes then people who get crumbs, fair?

Hoards the pie? What the hell are you talking about? Wealth isn't a pie to be spread around. Wealth is earned through hard work. I'll break a million networth by the time I'm 40 from hard work.
 
I'm not sure if you're trolling or being ignorant. Wealth is not distributed evenly across the board, with lion's share going to a small group at the top. As such, they should also shoulder an increased share of the tax burden. Wealth does not equate to hard work. Inherited wealth requires very little work on the person's behalf other than being born to the right parents. You sound like a trickle down economics soundbite tbh.

You just showed your own ignorance. Wealth isn't something to be distributed. Wealth is there for the taking. It doesn't matter if someone's wealth came from their parents or family. That is money earned by their family and it is their right to It.

As for the trickle down economics I dislike that term. I want tax equality while people like you fight for inequality. I want everyone to contribute the same amount. Right now it's impossible but if we can eliminate programs like Medicaid and stop policing the world maybe one day it will be.
 
@theBLADE1, pretty sure you didn't read your own links. Here's from one of them:

http://www.scholarsstrategynetwork.org/how-money-corrupts-american-politics



Then the writer proceeds to describe ways that money can actually influence politics that are in line with what I've been saying.

The Atlantic piece also backs me up more than you.

You really are pathetic. I have never stated the one who raises the most corporate dollars will be victorious. The point that you are still missing is that if certain companies give their dollars to a specific politician, then that politician will vote in line with the will of those companies and/or people or else those campaign contributions dry up when it's time for reelection.

And the man point that you even quoted from that link.

"Yet the perfectly legal flood of money that pervades American politics has fundamentally corrupting effects."

It's almost like you didn't even read that far.
 
I want everyone to contribute the same amount. Right now it's impossible but if we can eliminate programs like Medicaid and stop policing the world maybe one day it will be.

Why should everyone contribute the same amount of taxes when not everyone has the same amount of income? This continues to shrink the middle class and grow the top 1% of the country. How is that fair?

Also Medicaid cuts are not coming as it is the most popular program in America with pretty much universal support from those on the right and left in terms of voters.
 
My bet is the bill in the current form will get zero Democrat votes. It raises taxes on some middle and upper middle class voters, it raises taxes on folks living in blue states (if they remove the SALT deduction) and it increases the deficits over a decade to $1.5T, which is conservative, so that primarily large corporations, large pass-throughs and wealthy heirs get a cut. There is nothing in this bill that aligns with Democrats' values or positions, even the small stuff.

I just thought it was lame that you argued so passionately with Jack to say one would vote for the tax plan.

And yet Joe Manchin Is already considering voting in favor of the new tax cuts.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/04/trump-gop-tax-bill-democrats-244529

“I’m not ruling out supporting it — heck, no,” Manchin said in an interview. “If I find a pathway forward, I’ll be for it.”

You can talk about Democratic "values or positions" all you want but it doesn't really mean anything especially when these neoliberals are never challenged from the left like they should be.

You say lame I say a safe bet.
 
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