Studying the Cross-Armed Guard a.k.a. "The Lock"

[Sinister]

I'd score those situations the same way, knowing that what was happening. I'm not sure how you could score it to the guy who only gyrated his **** rather than attempting to fight. That's not bullshitting, that's the art of seeing through bullshitting and it's one of few skills (the only?) judges possess. All bullshitters run in to it at some point when they don't KO their opponent. I'm thinking of Silva/Maia at the moment, but my mind is trying to remember back to Whitaker or Naseem fights.

Actually I do remember some fights Whitaker lost due to BSing. Naseem presumably lost some rounds due to that but these guys fought so long ago I can't remember.

Most of the people who scored Marquez/Bradley for Bradley based it largely on Marquez's ineffectiveness, rather than Bradley's effectiveness. This was assisted by Bradley "telling" everyone Marquez was ineffective with his facial expressions and body-language. Not so much great things Bradley got done.

 

[fightingrabbit]

Also, Foreman used the cross arms, but what Moore did with it that made it so effective was not just the crossing of the arms, but what he called a "serpentine movement". You see him always rolling, feinting, and snaking his head and body in and out of range. This is what allowed him to move and roll and put him in positions to counter. That's the part of the equation that made Archie such a good counter puncher and so good with that style imo.

Also just as a note, in the book when he was first experimenting with the cross arm defense, he said he'd always get his ass beat in fights, and catch shots using it. So much that reporters didn't think too highly of his style, and thought a lot of his weird serpentine movements were just extraneous and unnecessary. Not realizing that he was slowly honing his craft and ability, through trial and error.

 

[Sinister]

Yeah, Foreman had a concrete waist compared to Saddler and Moore, two of his trainers.

 

[Discipulus]

Also, Foreman used the cross arms, but what Moore did with it that made it so effective was not just the crossing of the arms, but what he called a "serpentine movement". You see him always rolling, feinting, and snaking his head and body in and out of range. This is what allowed him to move and roll and put him in positions to counter. That's the part of the equation that made Archie such a good counter puncher and so good with that style imo.

Also just as a note, in the book when he was first experimenting with the cross arm defense, he said he'd always get his ass beat in fights, and catch shots using it. So much that reporters didn't think too highly of his style, and thought a lot of his weird serpentine movements were just extraneous and unnecessary. Not realizing that he was slowly honing his craft and ability, through trial and error.

That's a great observation. I'm trying to figure out what made Foreman so successful with the Lock when he was always such a stiff, upright fighter. One of the things Archie gave him, in addition to the guard, was a faster, more consistent jab. Maybe that's party of the puzzle.

The other key factor might be George's frame. The same thing that made him sluggish and cumbersome also made him a very daunting facade to assault. With his size he could resort to a less movement-based, more pressure oriented version of the Lock.

 

[Kickzilla]

Great discussion but wondering, what are the exact specific of how to use it?

Any explanations out there?

What are the situational benefits of it compared to say the standard high guard?

 

[thugpoet]

That's a great observation. I'm trying to figure out what made Foreman so successful with the Lock when he was always such a stiff, upright fighter. One of the things Archie gave him, in addition to the guard, was a faster, more consistent jab. Maybe that's party of the puzzle.

The other key factor might be George's frame. The same thing that made him sluggish and cumbersome also made him a very daunting facade to assault. With his size he could resort to a less movement-based, more pressure oriented version of the Lock.

"the lock" was a defensively position for him it wasn't used to set up counters. It was used to absorb damage think Joshua cottley (sp?) his countering and the way he set up his punches was with his grappling. Weather with rocking you on your heels then punching, or by pulling or pushing your arms to create angles. He was a great boxing grappler ( hand fighter(

Really George just wanted to touch you, just put his hands on you then guide your arms out of position, subtly ( with jabs) or forcefully by simply racking your arms down out of the way with his bear like strength.

George is my fav heavyweight he doesn't get enough respect. He embodies what I consider myself to be ( a 147 version ) a slugger with boxing ablity

 

[Sinister]

Yeah, but George did throw very very similar punches as Moore from that position, circular punches more than straight.

Great discussion but wondering, what are the exact specific of how to use it?

Any explanations out there?

What are the situational benefits of it compared to say the standard high guard?

Best bet is to go down to San Diego to visit the Mongoose Gym and ask Billy directly. He still trains fighters there.

 

[Discipulus]

I love Foreman's awareness of the weaknesses of his own style in that Cooper bout. He knew to throw that sneaky right to the ribs of Cooper whenever he got him to put his guard up, and every time that George himself would bring up his guard he knew exactly when to drop his elbow back to his side or roll his body in the right way to take away the target.

Thugpoet, I see what you're saying to some degree, but I think that's the remnants of Saddler's influence on Foreman more than anything Moore taught him. Saddler, too, was a heavy handed scrapper, who liked to get very physical with his opponents and bully them into his shots. I admire that aspect of Foreman's style, but I'm interested to learn what other things he picked up from Archie in particular.

I do wonder what the advantage of catching a jab on the cross-armed guard might be over, say, simply slipping it. We see Cooper doing both in that video, but his slipping is too nervous: he moves away and back from Foreman's punches rather than into countering range.

 

[Discipulus]

By the way, devante, there is some similarity between the Skull and Bones and this guard, but Lyte actually teaches another block that is the spitting image of a cross-armed guard. I can't remember what it's called, but I'll update this when I find it.

 

[diosdedestrucci]

By the way, devante, their is some similarity between the Skull and Bones and this guard, but Lyte actually teaches another block that is the spitting image of a cross-armed guard. I can't remember what it's called, but I'll update this when I find it.

What Lyte teaches is called robbing the bank you stand a little bit more bladed then square with the lock and we use the skull and cross bones not only to discourage power punching but feinting as well

 

[Discipulus]

Rob the Bank, that's the one. Thanks a lot. You train with Lyte, diosdedestrucci?

Edit: I'm going to start watching Foreman vs. Morrison again (I haven't seen this one in a while now), and we can start looking at how Morrison was able to pick Big George apart. Of course, Foreman isn't the prototypical user of the Lock, but I am very interested in the way that he used it, and he did get it directly from Archie Moore.



Something else to watch out for is Foreman's right hook to the body as a counter to the left jab, a very old school technique that I'm a big fan of. Much like the cross counter, he takes his head off line and throws the right hand as a "soft" punch, connecting as the opponent lunges forward with their missed jab.

 

[Discipulus]

I gotta be honest. I'm only four rounds into this fight, and Morrison is fighting a very smart fight against Foreman. But this isn't the Archie Moore trained George Foreman. He looks lost, and he hasn't gone to the Lock once so far. In fact, this looks like a slower version of Sandy Saddler Foreman. He's trying for a lot of shoving and hand fighting tactics, parrying and using forearm blocks much more than anything else.

Edit: This fight, between Foreman and Evander Holyfield, is much more useful for the purposes of this thread.



Perhaps that's partially explained by the fact that this fight took place two years before the Morrison loss. Foreman is noticeably quicker and more agile here.

Interestingly, Jim Lampley says early in the first round that Holyfield believed that any time Foreman had his arms crossed, he would not be able to punch back, and so aimed to pull the trigger whenever Foreman went to the Lock. His trainer at the time, the great George Benton, apparently delighted in the idea of breaking Foreman down by deliberately punching his defending arms and shoulders.

 

[diosdedestrucci]

By the way, devante, there is some similarity between the Skull and Bones and this guard, but Lyte actually teaches another block that is the spitting image of a cross-armed guard. I can't remember what it's called, but I'll update this when I find it.

Rob the Bank, that's the one. Thanks a lot. You train with Lyte, diosdedestrucci?

Edit: I'm going to start watching Foreman vs. Morrison again (I haven't seen this one in a while now), and we can start looking at how Morrison was able to pick Big George apart. Of course, Foreman isn't the prototypical user of the Lock, but I am very interested in the way that he used it, and he did get it directly from Archie Moore.



Something else to watch out for is Foreman's right hook to the body as a counter to the left jab, a very old school technique that I'm a big fan of. Much like the cross counter, he takes his head off line and throws the right hand as a "soft" punch, connecting as the opponent lunges forward with their missed jab.

Yes I do if you look at the recent videos he did I'm the hungry wolf I'm also a serra longo fighter since moving back to ny. Back to the subject though I've trained with several coaches and love lytes methods if I had to describe it it's shapes most coaches try to mold you in there ideaology but Lyte maximizes your strengths and not only helps you follow the rules but kinda break them in the same context if you know what I mean

 

[Discipulus]

That's awesome. I remember seeing those and being really impressed that someone from Serra-Longo was training in NY with Lyte. I've been very impressed by the boxing of many of Longo's guys as well (Philippou, Weidman, Iaquinta), so that seems to be a really potent combination of instruction you've got going on there.

I'm about to send you a PM!

 

[thugpoet]

I love Foreman's awareness of the weaknesses of his own style in that Cooper bout. He knew to throw that sneaky right to the ribs of Cooper whenever he got him to put his guard up, and every time that George himself would bring up his guard he knew exactly when to drop his elbow back to his side or roll his body in the right way to take away the target.

Thugpoet, I see what you're saying to some degree, but I think that's the remnants of Saddler's influence on Foreman more than anything Moore taught him. Saddler, too, was a heavy handed scrapper, who liked to get very physical with his opponents and bully them into his shots. I admire that aspect of Foreman's style, but I'm interested to learn what other things he picked up from Archie in particular.

I do wonder what the advantage of catching a jab on the cross-armed guard might be over, say, simply slipping it. We see Cooper doing both in that video, but his slipping is too nervous: he moves away and back from Foreman's punches rather than into countering range.

the only reason i bring it up because i never liked the way he used it, foreman was always more stationary, then what i think he needed to be using the cross arm

 

[Discipulus]

the only reason i bring it up because i never liked the way he used it, foreman was always more stationary, then what i think he needed to be using the cross arm

I'm not sure that Foreman had it in him to be a very mobile fighter. You see the difference in the Cooper and Holyfield fights. Hell, even in his first run he looked like a big clumsy oaf compared to guys like Frazier, who were smaller and much more agile. I think it worked so well for him in his second run because of his immobility. It was a good way to keep from absorbing too much damage as he came forward, and his goal was always to get a guy against the ropes where his quick feet couldn't help him.

Something else that George does in this Holyfield fight, and which he's done in many fights (such as when he knocked out Gerry ****ey) is shift punching. There's a video out there of Arnor, one of Luis and Dadi's students, demonstrating angles, and one of the angle+punch combinations is a left hook/uppercut combined with a diagonal step of the right foot. Foreman does that very well; even as his right foot trails forward after a whiffed right hand, he'll shift his weight to that foot as it comes fully forward and uncork a massive, short left uppercut.

 

[diosdedestrucci]

I'm not sure that Foreman had it in him to be a very mobile fighter. You see the difference in the Cooper and Holyfield fights. Hell, even in his first run he looked like a big clumsy oaf compared to guys like Frazier, who were smaller and much more agile. I think it worked so well for him in his second run because of his immobility. It was a good way to keep from absorbing too much damage as he came forward, and his goal was always to get a guy against the ropes where his quick feet couldn't help him.

Something else that George does in this Holyfield fight, and which he's done in many fights (such as when he knocked out Gerry ****ey) is shift punching. There's a video out there of Arnor, one of Luis and Dadi's students, demonstrating angles, and one of the angle+punch combinations is a left hook/uppercut combined with a diagonal step of the right foot. Foreman does that very well; even as his right foot trails forward after a whiffed right hand, he'll shift his weight to that foot as it comes fully forward and uncork a massive, short left uppercut.

Hey Connor clear out your inbox I can't pm you

 

[Discipulus]

Done. Sorry about that; I kinda just assumed it would auto-delete the oldest messages when the inbox filled up.

 

[ALE]

the first time i've seen this style it was a guy with leopard trunkson on HBO and it seemed like he was carrying an invisible shield lol. amazing.

 

[goldennboy]

I do this lock style when I rush inside to close the gap, when I'm getting hit, I also do this lock to smother my opponent. Once I'm in the phonebooth with the guy I go back to the shell.

It's worked well, I just can't imagine using it as a primary defence.