Story of Jesus Christ was 'fabricated to pacify the poor', claims Biblical scholar Joseph Atwill

We're not arguing historicity, though I'm sure I'd fare pretty well in that discussion with you, since you attempt to cast Atwill and Carrier in the same light, which is a hilarious blunder. I could be swayed either way about the existence of a Jesus person, and though I lean against his existence I think I could make a pretty good case for his existence as well. Not relevant to your claims, though.

So let's get back to the claim.

You are talking about this letter:

1. Know and see, that in the day when you delivered Jesus to me, I took pity on myself and testified by washing my hands that I was innocent concerning him who rose from the grave after three days, and had performed your pleasure in him, for you wanted me to be associated with you in his crucifixion.
2. But I now learn from the executioners and from the soldiers who watched his sepulchre that he rose from the dead. And I have especially confirmed what was told me: that he appeared bodily in Galilee, in the same form, and with the same voice, and with the same doctrine, and with the same disciples, not having changed in anything, but preaching with boldness his resurrection and an everlasting kingdom.
3. And behold, heaven and earth rejoice; and behold, Procla my wife is believing in the visions which appeared unto her when you sent that I should deliver Jesus to the people of Israel, because of the ill-will they had.
4. Now when Procla, my wife, heard that Jesus was risen and had appeared in Galilee, she took with her Longinus the centurion and twelve soldiers, the same who had watched at the sepulchre, and went to greet the face of Christ, as if to a great spectacle, and saw him with his disciples.
5. Now while they were standing and wondering, and gazing at him, he looked at them and said to them, What is it? Do you believe in me? Procla, know that in the covenant God gave to the fathers, it is said that everybody who had perished should live by means of my death, which you have seen. And now you see that I live, whom you crucified. And I suffered many things, till I was laid in the sepulchre. But now, hear me and believe in my Father -- God who is in me. For I loosed the cords of death and broke the gates of Hades, and my coming shall be in the future.
6. And when Procla my wife and the Romans heard these things, they came and told me weeping, for they also were against him when they devised the evils they had done unto him. So that I also was on the couch of my bed in affliction, and put on a garment of mourning, and took unto me fifty Romans with my wife and went into Galilee.
7. And when I was going in the way I testified these things: that Herod did these things by me, that he took counsel with me, and constrained me to arm my hands against him, and to judge him that judges all, and to whip the Just One, Lord of the just.
8. And when we drew near to him, O Herod, a great voice was heard from heaven, and dreadful thunder, and the earth trembled and gave forth a sweet smell, like to which was never perceived even in the temple of Jerusalem.
9. Now while I stood in the way, our Lord saw me as he stood and talked with his disciples. But I prayed in my heart, for I knew that it was he whom you delivered to me, that he was Lord of created things and Creator of all.
10. But we, when we saw him, all of us fell upon our faces before his feet. And I said with a loud voice, I have sinned, O Lord, in that I sat and judged you, who avenges all in truth. And lo, I know that you are God, the Son of God, and I beheld your humanity but not your divinity. But Herod, with the children of Israel, constrained me to do evil unto you. Have pity, therefore, on me, O God of Israel!
11. And my wife in great anguish, said, God of heaven and of earth, God of Israel, do not reward me according to the deeds of Pontius Pilate, nor according to the will of the children of Israel, nor according to the thought of the sons of the priests, but remember my husband in your glory!
12. Now our Lord drew near and raised up me and my wife, and the Romans. I looked at him and saw there were on him the scars of his cross.
13. And he said, That which all the righteous fathers hoped to receive, and saw not -- in your time the Lord of Time, the Son of Man, the Son of the Most High, who is forever, arose from the dead and is glorified on high by all that he created, and established for ever and ever.


1. Justinus, one of the writers in the days of Augustus and Tiberius and Gaius, wrote in his third discourse: Now Mary the Gailaean, who bore the Christ who was crucified in Jerusalem, had not been with a husband. And Joseph did not abandon her, but continued in sanctity without a wife, he and his five sons by a former wife; and Mary continued without a husband.
2. Theodorus wrote to Pilate the Governor: Who was the man against whom there was a complaint before you, that he was crucified by the men of Palestine? If many demanded this righteously, why did you not consent to their righteousness? And if they demanded this unrighteously, how did you transgress the law and command what was far from righteousness? Pilate sent to him: -- Because he wrought signs I did not wish to crucify him, but since his accusers said, He calls himself a king, I crucified him.
3. Josephus says: Agrippa the king was clothed in a robe woven with silver, and saw the spectacle in the theater of Caesarea. When the people saw that his raiment flashed, they said to him, Until now we feared you as a man; from now on you are exalted above the nature of mortals. And he saw an angel standing over him, and he smote him to death.

This is utter nonsense mythmaking. It's kind of funny that you would try to say that the original copy of this was destroyed in order to suppress knowledge of Pilate to create the Jesus myth when it supports the myth of Jesus' execution and resurrection.

There is no evidence I have seen to suggest this was some kind of response to some other phantom document or any kind of cover-up. That seems to be pure baseless speculation. It's just a forgery, and a late one at that.

It dates from the 6-7th century and I could not find even one reputable scholar claiming it as authentic. In the scholarly world, it seems to be nothing more than a curious footnote in the study of various forgeries that were attributed to Pilate.

Bart Ehrman had this to say about it in Forgery and Counterforgery:

"As a final forgery to be considered from the Pilate cycle, the Letter of Pilate to Herod is principally concerned with showing how Pilate, along with his wife Procla and Longinus, the soldier at the cross, all converted to become follows of Christ after the resurrection."

1.) I’ve been arguing historicity the whole time. What do you know, you can’t even get down off of your high horse to see that. Shocking.

2.) Atwill and Carrier are cut from the exact same cloth. Carrier is the worse of the two, as his extensive credentials would indicate.

3.) Wait... those are all forgeries?! NO SHIT FAWLTY?!?? It’s almost as if I said that and you didn’t read what I said...
 
@lfd0311 Do you remember when I referred to a journal entry by Christopher Columbus that described raping a native? Remember how, upon researching and learning that the journal entry to which I was referring was actually written by a different explorer, I retracted my claim and admitted that I was wrong? Remember how what I didn't do was just keep insisting that the journal by Columbus actually existed and refusing to provide support for my claim?

Why can't you do that? Admitting you were wrong or that you can't sufficiently support your claim is a heck of a lot less embarrassing that just digging yourself deeper and refusing to acknowledge that your claim is bunk.

Lol, except what you really did was get pissed and slink off.

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/g...ebates-potential-game-changer.3307787/page-10

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/c...ced-by-indiginous-peoples-day.3635755/page-16



You’re the verified worst liar in this subforum

@meauneau please respond
 
This is the most embarrassing, petty, and self-owning display I have seen online in a very long time.


Reminds me of:

"Let's get back to this lady who said communist down here. What did you mean by that?"
"All you have to do is study it out, just study it out and you'll see - you haven't done your homework buddy"
"What do I need to study?"
"That he's a communist and those of us who are not voting for him know it."
"And what do you mean by communist?"
"You don't know?"
"Just tell me, help me out here. I just want to know what you mean
"Oh I know what I mean."
"Well tell me what you mean when you just accused the guy of being a communist. Do you think he's an American?"
"Oh no."
"What country is he from?"
Just because he was born here doesn't mean that he thinks like us -- he's a communist, buddy."



See my last post to fully appreciate how funny this is
 
Lol, except what you really did was get pissed and slink off.

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/g...ebates-potential-game-changer.3307787/page-10

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/c...ced-by-indiginous-peoples-day.3635755/page-16



You’re the verified worst liar in this subforum

@meauneau please respond


Aaaaand, you continue to embarrass yourself, just like you did in that thread when you couldn't take "yes" for an answer. Here is proof of my post in which you say that I'm "lying" that I retracted a claim and didn't keep insisting on it.

However, I did just verify that the particular journal entry I was just thinking of was actually a letter from Michele de Cuneo, a compatriot of Columbus, and not Columbus himself.
Huh?

I conceded that I'm sure we broached this topic before and that I deferred to the knowledge of my friend who is more of an expert on the topic. I said that I however doubt I told you I would go ask him so that I could iron out the internet conversation. Because I would never do that. Because wtf kind of loser would. Furthermore, I conceded that my "rape" remark in this thread was actually attributed to Michel de Cuneo.
And then you keep pestering me and spamming questions. Which is why both of those threads (like this one) turned into epic 50-page shit shows of you never shutting the fuck up, while your betters run a sloppy train on you.
 
Aaaaand, you continue to embarrass yourself, just like you did in that thread when you couldn't take "yes" for an answer. Here is proof of my post in which you say that I'm "lying" that I retracted a claim and didn't keep insisting on it.



And then you keep pestering me and spamming questions. Which is why both of those threads (like this one) turned into epic 50-page shit shows of you never shutting the fuck up, while your betters run a sloppy train on you.

Remember how you were going to talk to your friend and get back to me about the entire topic and you never did? That’s apparently me refusing to take yes for an answer. You conceding a minor point and running away.
 
Remember how you were going to talk to your friend and get back to me about the entire topic and you never did? That’s apparently me refusing to take yes for an answer. You conceding a minor point and running away.

JFC, you're a pathetic child. I don't believe I ever said I was going to consult my friend (I don't see in the two threads you pasted my having said anything about talking to him and getting back to you: only that I was initially basing my statement on a conversation with him), but if you have a quote of my having said that, I'll readily apologize and concede that I never intended to bother an IRL friend with the pesterings of someone like yourself. And, regardless, I didn't need to do that since I verified through my own research that I was mistaken about the journal: the only relevant point.

So, like you've done here, you redirected the conversation onto some pedantic point of supposed dishonesty or bad faith and then derped it into the ground.
 
So, a 100 yr old man didn't get every species and build a large boat? What?! lol
 
JFC, you're a pathetic child. I don't believe I ever said I was going to consult my friend (I don't see in the two threads you pasted my having said anything about talking to him and getting back to you: only that I was initially basing my statement on a conversation with him), but if you have a quote of my having said that, I'll readily apologize and concede that I never intended to bother an IRL friend with the pesterings of someone like yourself. And, regardless, I didn't need to do that since I verified through my own research that I was mistaken about the journal: the only relevant point.

So, like you've done here, you redirected the conversation onto some pedantic point of supposed dishonesty or bad faith and then derped it into the ground.

Yes.. of course... your argument getting crushed was me “pestering” you. Trotsky always makes my day.
 
Yes.. of course... your argument getting crushed was me “pestering” you. Trotsky always makes my day.

So now that we've settled that and refreshed ourselves on what it's like for an adult to retract or amend a claim in the face of new evidence, are you going to finally present your documentation of your "well-documented" claim?

I mean, this thread would have been over 15 pages ago if you were just willing to either (i) present some evidence for your claim or (ii) admit you're full of shit and too embarrassed to quit digging.
 
1.) I’ve been arguing historicity the whole time. What do you know, you can’t even get down off of your high horse to see that. Shocking.

2.) Atwill and Carrier are cut from the exact same cloth. Carrier is the worse of the two, as his extensive credentials would indicate.

3.) Wait... those are all forgeries?! NO SHIT FAWLTY?!?? It’s almost as if I said that and you didn’t read what I said...

Then what letter are you talking about? One that is made up inside of somebody's brain for which there is absolutely no evidence? Because I posted the letter you have been referring to. Are you somehow going to claim that there was a "real" letter? Remember, you call this a "well documented fact."
 
@lfd0311 and @Fawlty, there is no reason to discuss this topic anymore, @lfd0311 refuses to state his claims in clear unambiguous language and has failed to provide the evidence everyone is asking him for.

But the real reason why we should just move along is the fact that David Hume showed us that all appeals to testimony for any claims of miracles or supernatural events can never be more likely than the natural explanation that the testifier was deceived or deceiving. An imaginary letter or even a real one will not change the fact that it is more reasonable to believe that the witnesses were lying or deceived about Jesus.

Atheists 1 : Theists 0
 
@lfd0311 and @Fawlty, there is no reason to discuss this topic anymore, @lfd0311 refuses to state his claims in clear unambiguous language and has failed to provide the evidence everyone is asking him for.

But the real reason why we should just move along is the fact that David Hume showed us that all appeals to testimony for any claims of miracles or supernatural events can never be more likely than the natural explanation that the testifier was deceived or deceiving. An imaginary letter or even a real one will not change the fact that it is more reasonable to believe that the witnesses were lying or deceived about Jesus.

Atheists 1 : Theists 0
I'm about done with this myself, unless he wants to take some kind of coherent position, any sort of coherent position. Every once in a while it's good to hold their feet to the fire on these sorts of things.
 
@lfd0311 and @Fawlty, there is no reason to discuss this topic anymore, @lfd0311 refuses to state his claims in clear unambiguous language and has failed to provide the evidence everyone is asking him for.

But the real reason why we should just move along is the fact that David Hume showed us that all appeals to testimony for any claims of miracles or supernatural events can never be more likely than the natural explanation that the testifier was deceived or deceiving. An imaginary letter or even a real one will not change the fact that it is more reasonable to believe that the witnesses were lying or deceived about Jesus.

Atheists 1 : Theists 0
odin-meme.jpg


Atheists 1 : Theists 1

TIED GAME AGAIN. Cecil Peoples would judge it as 30-27 with the winner being that grizzly bear cub at this stage.
 
I'm about done with this myself, unless he wants to take some kind of coherent position, any sort of coherent position. Every once in a while it's good to hold their feet to the fire on these sorts of things.
I agree. You have run a marathon around the world trying to get something unambiguous and relevant to the topic from him to no avail unfortunately. He refuses to show decency and education.
 
So now that we've settled that and refreshed ourselves on what it's like for an adult to retract or amend a claim in the face of new evidence, are you going to finally present your documentation of your "well-documented" claim?

I mean, this thread would have been over 15 pages ago if you were just willing to either (i) present some evidence for your claim or (ii) admit you're full of shit and too embarrassed to quit digging.

First of all LOL at you constantly pretending to behave like an adult in these forums

Secondly, maybe actually just read this thread where I admitted to being wrong in my initial post. Excellent shit posting as usual.
 
Then what letter are you talking about? One that is made up inside of somebody's brain for which there is absolutely no evidence? Because I posted the letter you have been referring to. Are you somehow going to claim that there was a "real" letter? Remember, you call this a "well documented fact."

How fucking hard is it for you to just read what I wrote? You claim to be an intelligent person. Read, then understand. I’m not going to continue writing it out over and over for you to constantly misunderstand simple, written English and then pretend that your inability to understand is somehow my fault.

EDIT: I called it a well documented fact because it is.
 
I agree. You have run a marathon around the world trying to get something unambiguous and relevant to the topic from him to no avail unfortunately. He refuses to show decency and education.

D you still think that I claimed they existed into modern times?

@meauneau please respond
 
First of all LOL at you constantly pretending to behave like an adult in these forums

Secondly, maybe actually just read this thread where I admitted to being wrong in my initial post. Excellent shit posting as usual.

Care to cite? The first post of yours that I see here does nothing of the sort. But...you admitted to being wrong in the same post that you cited this "well-documented" fact that you've been poop-dollaring for the past 25 pages?
 
@lfd0311 and @Fawlty, there is no reason to discuss this topic anymore, @lfd0311 refuses to state his claims in clear unambiguous language and has failed to provide the evidence everyone is asking him for.

But the real reason why we should just move along is the fact that David Hume showed us that all appeals to testimony for any claims of miracles or supernatural events can never be more likely than the natural explanation that the testifier was deceived or deceiving. An imaginary letter or even a real one will not change the fact that it is more reasonable to believe that the witnesses were lying or deceived about Jesus.

Atheists 1 : Theists 0

Dude, this is beyond fucking priceless, and once again shows how stupid you are. It also shows what terrible lengths you will go to to create strawmen.
 

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