STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

[Amerikuracana]

There is one thing that needs to die..

That is Abrams comically stupid invention of "mystery without an answer." Embarrassing. 'Lost' was embarrassing at the end.. The trick only fkn worked a few months.. The questions without answers is lazy and comically stupid.

 

[minute bull]

There is one thing that needs to die..

That is Abrams comically stupid invention of "mystery without an answer." Embarrassing. 'Lost' was embarrassing at the end.. The trick only fun worked a few months.. The questions without answers is lazy and comically stupid.

I liked LOST, too.

 

[Amerikuracana]

I liked LOST, too.

The whole time? You didn't catch on? I liked a season and a half. Watching the end, thank GOD I realized it was going nowhere. Embarassing.

 

[ufcfan4]

I don't get your point about "uncool" which is different than claiming that people in there 30's don't want fun movies. Yeah it would have been awesome to see Luke growing into a very powerful Jedi. What they did with him was just bad.



When is she NOT proficient with it is a better question? These movies aren't showing a progression of her skill. She is just great from the get go. She shouldn't be defeating more powerful force users on her first try. It's nonsensical.



The one with Luke has some kind of explanation sure but when you put it with everything else she does it's still consistent with her being over powered. I would rather have seen Luke being shown to be stronger than her even without trying. Because it's Luke and because he should be stronger and wiser after all these years.

I never said anything about skipping the island. The island should have been more important than this. It was bad.

No doubt in the proficiency. As others are pointing out, Rey needed no training or struggle to get to the level she is at. Her struggle is one of understanding her identity- who her parents were, why she has always felt the force potential in her and what to do about it. But it's not a struggle of, I have this potentiality but need to know how to develop it. I had a couple of people tell me that Luke was way better than one would expect him to be given the very minimal Obi Wan instruction he had received in ANH.

Umm...I guess. He pulls off a really impressive shot to destroy the Death Star by using the Force...but look at the start of Empire Strikes Back. Compare Luke struggling to draw the lightsaber toward him on Hoth. Meanwhile Rey manages to draw in Luke's lightsaber in TFA while Kylo who has been shown to be extremely powerful tries to do the same.

Not to mention her fighting ability. The guy in that video made a solid point about there being significance to the fact that we knew Luke was not good enough to take on Vader. He has to get to that point. In Empire, the absolute only reason he survives is that Vader does not want to kill him. In TFA, Rey not only survives Ren's attack (and we have no sense that Ren wouldn't kill her, other than Snoke's urging him to bring her to him) but she actively defeats him.

It all just goes back to the idea of progression and where you can go from here. With Snoke dead (and almost as a tease, the film showed that Snoke is actually much more powerful than Rey, despite how advanced her abilities are), we are left with Kylo vs. Rey and we already know that Rey is a bad, bad matchup for Ren. So how do you really frame that and make it compelling.

 

[minute bull]

This is a good point. Ep 9 can be almost anything because they are no plotlines or loose ends from ep 8 that need to be followed up on. Maybe it will make for a great movie. Hopefully it does. I wonder how the three movies will.hold up as a trilogy though.

Uneven by most accounts, but I think it's fine. Clearly better than the Prequels, but not by much. The major sin of the Prequels was being boring but also very artificial. After those dire straits, I said to myself I'd be fine with any STAR WARS film so long as the world didn't seem entirely green-screened. For all of Lucas's faults, his imaginative world-building is palpable and moreover fertile. Ripe for any of us to dance inside of his mindscape. Thus we bought how he used entire planets as singular stage-pieces for ultimate showdowns. It wasn't enough to fight on a volcano, he had to fight on LAVA PLANET!!!!! It's heady stuff, but it's mitigated by the unreality of his poor execution.

I am fine with this new slew of movies that feel like that occupy a real space, if unreal plot points. Plus, I like the characters enough and TLJ is a great piece of fiction.

The whole time? You didn't catch on? I liked a season and a half. Watching the end, thank GOD I realized it was going nowhere. Embarassing.

Yes this whole time. Well ... there was a point around season two and three I might have tuned out a bit. I really did not care for Charlie and I hated the way he moved plot. I much preferred Kate. By the latter seasons I recognize it was getting really bombastic but I cared enough about the characters and plus had a dedicated core of LOST Nighters where we got together and then theorized throughout the week. Often constructing superior contingencies to plot points. So for me LOST exists as a Schroedinger's cat of actuality and potential all at once. Couple with the experience of lively theorization, it was a fun show for me.

 

[IamStryker]

The whole time? You didn't catch on? I liked a season and a half. Watching the end, thank GOD I realized it was going nowhere. Embarassing.

I will say the same thing here that I recently said about the maze runner. It had an amazing set up that was so interesting I loved it but then the creators took the concept no where. They appeared to have no real direction for the story so it just fizzled out and sucked.

 

[Bob Gray]

I feel for you because in my REVENGE story I am your friend. My friend had to drag me to it. I wanted to like PHANTOM in the theater but grew over time to hate it, and CLONES I loathed. My friend swore to me Lucas pulls it out for REVENGE but by that time I feel like I was like some of the LJ detractors are now: simply resistant.



Here's the thing: I really thought THE FORCE AWAKENS was gonna be a slam-dunk. No way Abrams is gonna fumble the ball, but he used up all his STAR WARS ideas in STAR TREK. I couldn't believe how incredibly wasted the entire story is. As a "let's see the gang all come together story?" It's perfect (perfectly TELEVISION, too), but it is at odds with its opening crawl and its closing images, which are about Luke while NONE OF THE REST OF THE FILM IS.

isnt this disappointment in FA kind of mirroring what you're criticizing peoples disappointment for TLJ? It delivered a movie about something you werent expecting?


At any rate, Im planning on giving my second watch tomorrow. I really do want to love it. So, tell me what it is you think Im missing, and scouts honor I'm gonna go in giving it my best shot to see the angle.

I think we can both agree no one is changing anyones mind about Canto Blight.

 

[Bob Gray]

There is one thing that needs to die..

That is Abrams comically stupid invention of "mystery without an answer." Embarrassing. 'Lost' was embarrassing at the end.. The trick only fkn worked a few months.. The questions without answers is lazy and comically stupid.

But Abrams didnt do Lost. He just helped get it off the ground. it was Lindeloff and Cuses baby.

 

[Bob Gray]

Im skeptical on them. Afterall, i didnt ask for them.

This backlash hopefully prevents Johnson from coloring all over the star wars walls and he gets ejected from the next trilogy, as is the fate of some directors, citing "creative differences. " Yes, this movie made money, but it didnt make as much as it should have and dont think disney doesnt know this.

I still maintain that going away from the core characters and story is a huge difference and I am optimistic about Johnsons own trilogy. A clean break is basically what he was going for in TLJ and now he has it. He's still a very talented filmmaker.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

These are just garden variety moviemaking or writing flaws. There are several of them, but they are a completely separate issue from what I've been talking about.

Honestly I tend to think if there was an issue its that him and potentially Disney/Lucasfilm had a sense of hubris themselves, perhaps fed by the massive success of TFA? To me it comes across as a film that believes its ideas alone make it great cinema and those involved were potentially blinded by this into not realising or not caring that those themes aren't actually gotten across very well.

Again the idea that Starwars was only this non self aware domain of wish fulfilment sexist nerdom is to me clearly a strawman. TLJ to me feels like a response to a situation that didn't actually exist, SW contained a clear feminist message right from the start with Leia's character and ESB clearly looked to deconstruct any sense of simplistic heroism. Hence to me it feels like an inferior reheat of what we've already seen and a lot of the "you weren't ready for this" defences feel hollow and dishonest.

As someone who is politically very liberial I still take serious fault with Hollywood when it comes to co opting such issues in what I think is a cheap fashion. I felt TFA did this and said so often and TLJ really runs aground very badly on it here with the Poe/Holdo story. It doesn't have to be that way of course, Rogue One was for me an excellent film that didn't use politics cheaply and something like Fury Road whilst obviously political did make sure it had some depth to it.

 

[chickenluver]

Yoda was a little weirdo cranky old goofy bastard when Luke found him too.

That is completely false. He acts that way before Luke knows he's a Jedi Master. He's doing this because he knows Luke has preconceived notions of what a Jedi Master is, and he would never expect a little green creature to be one.

After he takes Luke to his home and Luke gets impatient and demands to see Yoda, Yoda starts speaking with Obi-Wan's force ghost, and his entire demeanor changes. He gets very sober and serious, he gives off an air of great wisdom and kindness. And he stays that way through the rest of the movie, and during Return of the Jedi.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

That is completely false. He acts that way before Luke knows he's a Jedi Master. He's doing this because he knows Luke has preconceived notions of what a Jedi Master is, and he would never expect one to be a little green creature.

After he takes Luke to his home and Luke gets impatient and demands to see Yoda, Yoda starts speaking with Obi-Wan's force ghost, and his entire demeanor changes. He gets very sober and serious, he gives off an air of great wisdom and kindness. And he stays that way through the rest of the movie, and during Return of the Jedi.

I was half expecting Force Ghost Yoda to start rapped Luke on the head repeatedly with his walking stick ala R2.

Honestly I was pretty shocked to see the character gotten so badly wrong going with the silly act Yoda puts up to test Luke. All I can think is that maybe it was some kind of misguided reaction against the Prequels thinking Yoda was too serious there? even that though I'd disagree with, Prequel Yoda was actually too nice were as Empire Yoda was downright scary with "you will be, you will be!".

 

[BisexualMMA]

I was half expecting Force Ghost Yoda to start rapped Luke on the head repeatedly with his walking stick ala R2.

Honestly I was pretty shocked to see the character gotten so badly wrong going with the silly act Yoda puts up to test Luke. All I can think is that maybe it was some kind of misguided reaction against the Prequels thinking Yoda was too serious there? even that though I'd disagree with, Prequel Yoda was actually too nice were as Empire Yoda was downright scary with "you will be, you will be!".

I think Rian Johnson watched this and thought it was The Empire Strikes Back.

 

[minute bull]

isnt this disappointment in FA kind of mirroring what you're criticizing peoples disappointment for TLJ? It delivered a movie about something you werent expecting?

While this may seem like semantics it's not, but I draw a line between a thing and the expression of that thing. I've said time after time that there's nothing wrong with not liking a film, but if you're going to express the sentiment poorly with made up strawmen I'm going to criticize that, for lack of a better word.

To me it's more like adjusting perception.

Not only have I said that, I've explained my opinions citing evidence from the films. I might have understated it, but in the middle of explaining how TFA fails a specific area Luke and I were discussing, I do state how it does work, which is as a team building film and a visit to nostalgia.

Lastly, yes this might be the same thing. Because it took me a while to appreciate FORCE AWAKENS. And maybe that will happen for some people here for this film.

At any rate, Im planning on giving my second watch tomorrow. I really do want to love it. So, tell me what it is you think Im missing, and scouts honor I'm gonna go in giving it my best shot to see the angle.

What didn't you like? It seems to me you understood everything, you just found plot threads dissatisfying and certain character moments woefully uncharacteristic. Honest question. And I will help where I can but....

I can't make anyone love a film. You have to come to it yourself, and for some people that needs to be an active pursuit, at least as active as whatever mechanism that compels them to speak so much against the film. I know what I like and I know what works. For you it's not a matter of the film not working, you understand how it works. But I couldn't guess what you like. Some think it's enough to say I just want a good movie, and leave it to me to guess what they mean.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

I think Rian Johnson watched this and thought it was The Empire Strikes Back.

Episode 9: The Bushes of Love?

 

[chickenluver]

That doesn't change the fact that it's one long story and that to isolate the Phantom Menace, as if it stands in its own, is wrong.

The question here is: Does The Phantom Menace have a protagonist?

And the answer is yes, Anakin Skywalker. He's introduced in Phantom and then developed in Clones and Sith.

Those three films--TOGETHER--constitute the story of Anakin Skywalker's rise as a Jedi and subsequent turn to the dark side.

Phantom Menace is not the first act of a play, it's a singular film. It's perfectly valid to evaluate it as such. Eps 2 and 3 had not been written when Ep 1 was released.

Anakin being developed in later movies has no bearing on whether or not he's the protagonist of the Phantom Menace.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Phantom Menace is not the first act of a play, it's a singular film. It's perfectly valid to evaluate it as such. Eps 2 and 3 had not been written when Ep 1 was released.

Anakin being developed in later movies has no bearing on whether or not he's the protagonist of the Phantom Menace.

I would say Qui-gon or Padme are as close to protagonists as the film has, there the ones who's decisions are driving the plot most.

Honestly it felt a bit odd to me that Padme was given a good deal of focus in the original film yet became merely a supporting role as a love interest after that. Lets forget about trying to cool a teenagers crush on you by dressing as a dominatrix.

 

[D Train]

Serious question: Do directors always have such influence on the script?
I was under the impression they were given a script and it was their job to bring that script to life. But it seems that both Abrams and Johnson did a considerable amount of writing.
Wouldn’t it make sense to have one person write an outline for all 3 films before you ever shoot the first one? It would keep tonal consistency and make sure no one is going rouge.

 

[chickenluver]

I would say Qui-gon or Padme are as close to protagonists as the film has, there the ones who's decisions are driving the plot most.

Yeah Qui-gon drives the first part while Padme is along for the ride, then they switch places when Padme decides to go back to Naboo.

Not really a good idea to kill one protagonist, while the other gets pushed into the role of love interest supporting character as you say.

 

[chickenluver]

Serious question: Do directors always have such influence on the script?
I was under the impression they were given a script and it was their job to bring that script to life. But it seems that both Abrams and Johnson did a considerable amount of writing.
Wouldn’t it make sense to have one person write an outline for all 3 films before you ever shoot the first one? It would keep tonal consistency and make sure no one is going rouge.

Abrams co-wrote along with 2 others. Johnson is sole credited writer here. Without some type of insider knowledge we can't know who else may have had influence on the script and final cut.

I think most people would agree TLJ is a jarring follow up to TFA, and that a preconceived plan would have been for the better.