STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

[Cool Hand Luke]

@Secret Agent , I appreciate that and I for one, also felt short changed, especially how vehemently I was one of the defenders of Finn's character flaws and Rey's abilities and how sure I was that all would be elaborated on in TLJ.

Having gone back and watched TFA I discovered that people had misplaced their understanding of Finn as a sanitation worker because he was only a sanitation worker while he was stationed on Star Base Killer. Otherwise, he had been trained as a storm trooper. This is why he could shoot and fight like he did. He didn't come from slinging light-swiffers and dusting-sabers to being able to fight. That training happened at some point and though it was not shown, when we found out he was a sanitation worker at one point, him being a storm trooper was not mutually exclusive. He was both.

For Rey, with all the foreshadowing, dream sequences, and allusion to her mysterious abilities being linked to the Skywalker clan (by virtue of Anakin-like ability to be proficient in many amazing things and the fact that the light sabre 'called' to her), I don't understand how ANYONE can feel unfulfilled about this lack of character development. I don't even have a problem with her parents being nobody important. But to throw away all that build up only to say 'Nope, nothing like that AND we're not going to address this issue anymore.' (admittedly this may change in the next movie).

 

[minute bull]

Having gone back and watched TFA I discovered that people had misplaced their understanding of Finn as a sanitation worker because he was only a sanitation worker while he was stationed on Star Base Killer. Otherwise, he had been trained as a storm trooper. This is why he could shoot and fight like he did. He didn't come from slinging light-swiffers and dusting-sabers to being able to fight. That training happened at some point and though it was not shown, when we found out he was a sanitation worker at one point, him being a storm trooper was not mutually exclusive. He was both.

That's a great point, and I myself have no problem with either Finn's "incredible" fighting ability nor the fact he turned around and mowed down his former brethren after virtue-signaling pacificism. I understand TFA exists at a weird nexus point between old school filmmaking (Lucas' love of pulp swashbucklers) and modern day ("Hey! But that can't happen in real life!"), but I'm not meant to identify with anyone he's "killed." They're the black hats. Not people, although I recognize that Finn's nature opened up the can of worms that's making some fans empathize with the helmets. If only in cheap derision.

For Rey....I don't understand how ANYONE can't feel unfulfilled about this lack of character development.

As the movie progressed, I had no idea where she would end up. Zero, and none of her moves felt contrived (except for the hand reaching-out joke, which I still love for the humor) nor against character. While you may think unpredictability is easy because .... well, what Rey character IS there? She's a cipher, she should be able to do anything -- and that's the challenge with writing. Anything can happen. The magic of Johnson ...

... is that he GUIDES expectation. He establishes Rey as one looking for a place in the world, which elevates her previous motive (in TFA) for wanting to stay with her parents. Here, it's because she cannot face the truth she was abandoned. She does nothing because she already knows that anything she does takes her further from her safety. This is mirrored in her misconception of the Force and Jedi, which handily also serves as meta-text for us who have misconceptions of the Force and Jedi. That's TWO levels of writing. On top of that Johnson echoed old and established new iconography that is so true to STAR WARS.

Luke resembles Yoda when he stands behind Rey. Luke resembles his father at the end of Rey's lightsaber, on the stone stairs. Luke shows us where teal milk comes from.

But back to Rey. We know Rey will always fight Ren, except in this film because they are forced to talk and in talking she changes. She goes through various stages: revulsion/attraction, strength/weakness, upper hand/ensnared in a trap, ignoramus/Jedi master, here/there.

This is all development, but not in the sense people seem to want -- which is blatant changes of title or "leveling up." Rather -- this reinforces Rey's character through choices and emotions, obstacles and efforts. We're not supposed to go forward with Rey -- we're going DEEPER into ourselves.

Finn, too. His progression has already been well-couched by someone else upthread.

 

[sickc0d3r]

Damn dude.

 

[minute bull]

HE'S B-BLAAAAAACK

Spoiler

Seriously, you know how long I've been starving for this film? SINCE 1983.

 

[hearthstone25]

Amazing.

Every word you just said was completely wrong.

Man, that's a handy line.

You know who ruined the STAR WARS trilogy? You did.

Enjoy your movie. If and where you're able.

You’re telling me The Last Jedi was a better made movie? LMAO...

How did it not fuck up this trilogy? I’m not saying the third can’t be good. Attack of the Clones fucked up the prequels but Revemge of the Sith was still good. It just TLJ fucked up so many characters and storylines that the final movie has to pick up the pieces like RotS did.

 

[Magooglie]

I hope Ren and Rey fall in love and rule the galaxy together.

 

[minute bull]

SKYYYWALKERRRR

By marriage.

LMAO...

SHAPE OF WATER is a movie for ten year olds, but with full-frontal nudity and swearing like you wouldn't believed possible.

It's a well-made film for an audience of ten people. It may resonate better than TLJ, it may look better and may have a better story -- but it DOES defeat itself by being too expensive for its scope and too adult for its intents.

As is typical of GDT. Don't get me wrong: I love THE SHAPE OF WATER; I am one of those ten. Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnd I'm not kidding myself either.

You don't have to believe me. You can share your thoughts in the SHAPE OF WATER thread; all four pages of it.

How did it not fuck up this trilogy? I’m not saying the third can’t be good. Attack of the Clones fucked up the prequels but Revemge of the Sith was still good. It just TLJ fucked up so many characters and storylines that the final movie has to pick up the pieces like RotS did.

What you consider pieces I say is a CLEAN SLATE with refreshed characters.

Be generous with yourself and share your effort to rise to the film. Try.

Or not try not.

You wouldn't be proving anyone wrong if you tried, least of all yourself.

 

[Guestx]

Shadow, i dont get you. You said you preferred to have a better training segment. I believe you didnt like the casino parts as well. Its been a while since we covered the basics, so i dont remember.

So probably 2 sections in this movie is flawed and you gave it an 8. Thats mind boggling cuz those are 2 big parts alone and you know ive expressed more than they..

So, you thought and had it in your head that rey did have more training off screen. Well, gee golly gosh, its not like we are watching a movie here. Id just about tailor a requirement to see some training, including some fuck ups.

Perhaps you could say that the casino section, as pointless as it is, was fun. Maybe it was. However its a big chunk of time doing something that will go no where and after repeated viewings, the glamour of this casino planet will fade.

That means, that the rest of the movie does its job so great that it supercedes its fuck ups and therefore earns your 8.

Yeah, I think the training could've been handled better. It's one of the primary flaws of the movie. As for the casino scene, I like the world building that it provided. I liked going somewhere new and the expansion of the SW universe. And I just like casinos in general, so it had that going for it. I will agree though that some dumb shit happened to move the plot along, like getting arrested for a parking violation and getting lucky enough to end up in a cell with someone who apparently is just as good at code breaking as the really awesome super-code breaker that they went there to find.

Here's the thing though, when I watched the film I was just having such a damn good time that I wasn't too bothered by any of that. I found it to be a hell of a fast-paced thrill ride and it held my interest better than most movies do. I thought it was fun, I loved the humor, I thought much of the action was great (the fight in the throne room especially), I thought it did interesting things with the characters, and I thought it was absolutely exquisite in terms of the visual design and effects. The bottom line is that I was into the experience, and in fact as soon as I walked out of the theater I called my dad and the first words out of my mouth were, "I LOVED IT!"

I actually have seen it a second time now. I will concede that the second time around, when I knew what was coming, the flaws stood out to me more. So if you wanted to argue that it's really more of a 7.5 than it is an 8, you could potentially talk me down to that score. But I think to go any lower than that is to neglect to see all the GOOD stuff about the film. Sure, it has flaws and it could've been a better movie. But at the end of the day, it's still a pretty damn good movie.

 

[Guestx]

You are not giving your initial reaction enough credit, imo. It isn't Crime and Punishment. You're not supposed to ponder the meaning of life and feel the need to move to Tibet after watching it. It's sci fi action and it delivered plenty of thrills and laughs, with likeable characters, clever writing, and outstanding vfx. The mainline story with Rey and Kylo bonding when no conflict was possible, shedding some doubt about each character's future, was very crafty.

I get that you can pick apart some things but how many movies are bulletproof? ESPECIALLY sci-fi, action movies? It's all subjective but I really have not met anyone IRL that didn't enjoy it. I saw it again two days ago and the theater was full, people had fun. It's a good movie.

Well I think that the Star Wars films have always been about exploring interesting themes. Eps 1-6 do a lot to delve into the nature of good and evil: What exactly is good? What is evil? Do we need BOTH the light and the dark in the world to achieve a proper balance? Is good and evil ultimately a matter of perspective?

They have never just been action movies; they are more thoughtful than that. And I do feel like they need to continue to be more thoughtful than that.

And yes, I will agree that no movie is perfect, and I've even said that very thing ITT. I tend to be fairly forgiving as a moviegoer and I have been forgiving of this film as well. But I do think that it's more than just the initial reaction that matters. Replay value counts for a lot as well. How much I'm going to want to rewatch a film plays a big factor into my overall assessment.

 

[sickc0d3r]

Replay value counts for a lot as well. How much I'm going to want to rewatch a film plays a big factor into my overall assessment.

Good point. I can see how this movie might lose replay value over time for me.

On the other hand, there are a lot of pretty bad movies that I can watch over and over again. Come to think of it, I'm not really even sure what makes a good "replay" movie, I guess I just know it when I see it.

 

[Guestx]

Good point. I can see how this movie might lose replay value over time for me.

On the other hand, there are a lot of pretty bad movies that I can watch over and over again. Come to think of it, I'm not really even sure what makes a good "replay" movie, I guess I just know it when I see it.

Yeah, for me, replay value is kind of an X factor. There are plenty of "good" movies that I don't really care to watch over and over.

The Godfather is one of the go-to examples when it comes to "great films," for instance. I do agree that it's a great film. But is it a film that I want to watch over and over and over? No, not really. Same goes for movies like Citizen Kane and The Shawshank Redemption. Great movies, to be sure. But if it's Friday night and I'm in the mood to watch something, I'll usually go with something lighter and more fun.

I mean, I've probably seen The Mummy 15 times but only I've seen The Godfather once.

But a movie merely being light and fun does not guarantee replay value for me. I guess like you said, at the end of the day I know it when I see it.

Here's what I can tell you though: In 2017 I went back and watched two films a second time in the theater. Blade Runner 2049 and Star Wars. I felt like I got a lot more out of a second viewing of Blade Runner than I did a second viewing of Star Wars.

 

[Loiosh]

They're the black hats. Not people, although I recognize that Finn's nature opened up the can of worms that's making some fans empathize with the helmets. If only in cheap derision.

 

[D3THRONED]

You’re telling me The Last Jedi was a better made movie? LMAO...

How did it not fuck up this trilogy? I’m not saying the third can’t be good. Attack of the Clones fucked up the prequels but Revemge of the Sith was still good. It just TLJ fucked up so many characters and storylines that the final movie has to pick up the pieces like RotS did.

Yeah some idiots in here literally praise the "great writing" lmfao

 

[minute bull]

It's good you won't realize how much you're embarrassing yourself.

 

[Guestx]

Lol you're LOOKING for meaning in this movie to the point that you seem to be creating it yourself.
Those would all be themes id be happy to actually SEE in the movie. Those were themes worth exploring, but theynever were.
I could imagine the loneliness of Rey and the guilt of Luke, but these things are barely actually SHOWN in the film. Knowing Luke lived on a rock for 2o years doesn't give me the feeling i would have gotten from actually seeing and feeling his failure with Kylo.
And Rey just does things...she doesn't really talk about herself. She just reacts to what people tell her to do

I think that we should not forget the proper role of inference in understanding films. Often in films the message is indirect. Things are conveyed subtly thought subtext and implication. And I think the same is true in some respect with TLJ.

So allow me to let you in to my way of thinking. . .

Let's take Luke for instance: He's grown old and cynical. So we have to ask ourselves WHY he has become this way. There must be a reason, after all.

So what do we know about Luke's situation? We know that he fought a war and defeated the Empire, but that the Empire was able to collect itself and regroup under the banner of the First Order. The First Order has grown very powerful and has hunted the Rebellion almost to extinction. This is the point in the story that we're dropped into with The Last Jedi, the moment at which the Rebellion could literally be snuffed out because they are so small and weak.

You have to think that this series of events has had a serious effect on Luke. He risked his life fighting against the Empire when he was young, even losing a hand in the process. But what did it really achieve? Not much it seems. The victory was short-lived. The Empire wasn't really defeated and the war has continued all of these many years. This has to have frustrated Luke and perhaps even made him feel impotent. He's seen friends die on the front lines of battle, and for what? Just so that the fighting can continue and more can die?

And what else do we know? We know that he established a Jedi Temple. At one point he felt the dark side growing in his disciple Kylo Ren--who is also his nephew--and he was on the verge of murdering him in his sleep, but when Kylo woke up all Luke saw "were the eyes of a scared boy whose master had failed him." They then fought and Kylo burned down the temple, taking some of the remaining disciples and murdering the rest.

All that Luke had worked to build was now gone. Destroyed. His life's work has literally gone up in flames. As a Jedi master, and as an uncle to Kylo, he was a failure. Luke clearly feels excessive guilt for this. If he had made a different decision in that moment then it's entirely possible that Kylo would never have turned, his other disciples would not have been murdered and his Jedi temple would still be flourishing.

So when you consider all this, and you see the end result of who Luke is in The Last Jedi, do you really think he's not a layered character? Can you not see exactly how and why Luke went from the baby-faced, upbeat kid we see in the OT to the grizzled, cynical old man we find in TLJ? Does it not make sense?

 

[lostdog000]

i enjoyed this:

 

[sickc0d3r]

Yeah, for me, replay value is kind of an X factor. There are plenty of "good" movies that I don't really care to watch over and over.

The Godfather is one of the go-to examples when it comes to "great films," for instance. I do agree that it's a great film. But is it a film that I want to watch over and over and over? No, not really. Same goes for movies like Citizen Kane and The Shawshank Redemption. Great movies, to be sure. But if it's Friday night and I'm in the mood to watch something, I'll usually go with something lighter and more fun.

I mean, I've probably seen The Mummy 15 times but only I've seen The Godfather once.

But a movie merely being light and fun does not guarantee replay value for me. I guess like you said, at the end of the day I know it when I see it.

Here's what I can tell you though: In 2017 I went back and watched two films a second time in the theater. Blade Runner 2049 and Star Wars. I felt like I got a lot more out of a second viewing of Blade Runner than I did a second viewing of Star Wars.

The Godfather is a perfect example. I'd have to be in the mood to rewatch it. I can watch Shawshank anytime, though. Great characters and great lines I guess. I just love em. Criteria for other movies would seem utterly random.

Anyway, yeah Blade Runner is excellent, better than TLJ, but I haven't seen it a second time yet and I've seen TLJ 3 times (with kids twice, though).

 

[Crawler89]

Thing is, alot of people are not seeing how Hubris is a huge theme in this film from what Im seeing in groups and discussions and such.

The Jedi - their hubris lead to the rise of the Emperor, as they never believed a Sith could rise again, and that the Jedi were perfect
Luke - His Hubris lead to Kylo Ren being born
Snoke - his confidence lead to Ren splitting him in half
Kylo - his lead to Luke "being with him forever" and the Rebellion escaping
Poe - his lead to them needing to go to crait in the first place and the deaths of hundreds of the rebellion
Finn and rose - trusting a stranger in DJ lead to their capture, beliving in him and that Maz would not be associated with scoundrels to some degree.

Plenty of the characters are layered if you sit and think about it. It just feels like "derp we need everything shown on screen and explained to us"

Luke running off to become a nobody was no different than Yoda running off to hide from The Empire - he was considered the wisest of all Jedi Masters, yet even he did not sense the rise of the sith, leading to the jedi downfall - hubris once again

All that said: Fuck Rose.

 

[Guestx]

Anyway, yeah Blade Runner is excellent, better than TLJ, but I haven't seen it a second time yet and I've seen TLJ 3 times (with kids twice, though).

I initially gave Blade Runner a 7.5. After a second viewing I gave it an 8.5. I really think a second viewing will enhance your understanding of the story.

Have you seen the three short films?

 

[hearthstone25]

Yeah, for me, replay value is kind of an X factor. There are plenty of "good" movies that I don't really care to watch over and over.

The Godfather is one of the go-to examples when it comes to "great films," for instance. I do agree that it's a great film. But is it a film that I want to watch over and over and over? No, not really. Same goes for movies like Citizen Kane and The Shawshank Redemption. Great movies, to be sure. But if it's Friday night and I'm in the mood to watch something, I'll usually go with something lighter and more fun.

I mean, I've probably seen The Mummy 15 times but only I've seen The Godfather once.

But a movie merely being light and fun does not guarantee replay value for me. I guess like you said, at the end of the day I know it when I see it.

Here's what I can tell you though: In 2017 I went back and watched two films a second time in the theater. Blade Runner 2049 and Star Wars. I felt like I got a lot more out of a second viewing of Blade Runner than I did a second viewing of Star Wars.

The Mummy is awesome lol One of the greatest replay movies ever.

For some reason if I have a chance to watch Starship Troopers, I always watch that shit even though it’s corny as hell.

What did you think of Bladerunner?