STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

[BisexualMMA]

Do we know yet how Benicio's character new that the rebels were 'secretly' sending the remaining people off on ships to the planet while they expected to bad white guys to continue following the main ship?

There is a very brief shot of him "noticing" that over the speaker when the Rebel base reports it to Finn and Rose. It's easy to miss, but for all my criticisms of the film, technically Johnson covers that base.

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

There is a very brief shot of him "noticing" that over the speaker when the Rebel base reports it to Finn and Rose. It's easy to miss, but for all my criticisms of the film, technically Johnson covers that base.

Ok cool - I had asked that pages ago but can't remember if it was ever addressed.

 

[minute bull]

Ok cool - I had asked that pages ago but can't remember if it was ever addressed.

 

[minute bull]

No, of course not.
Failure is fine if it serves a point in the movie.

Rian putting this casino arc in the movie was like choosing to eat a shit sandwich.
Of all the things he could have made, or restaurants he could have went to, he decided to shit between 2 slices of bread and ate it whole

You know what you needed from that plan? To reveal the Master Codebreaker as Lando Calrissian.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

It was a feasible plan. The characters tried to execute it. And it didn't work.

I just don't see what the fucking problem is with that. It's not like the plan itself didn't make sense.

HOW it was done was the problem.
The plan in and of itself wasn't the stupidest thing.
But what was given was entirely hollow.

We have to go to casino world to get a hacker to get inside the bad guy's ship...
A bit convoluted, but, i was on board with the plan when it was first discussed.
HOW they actually executed that entire plot was just mind numbingly stupid and a complete waste.

Instead of spending time getting to know some of these supposed rich, asshole, war profiteers, or getting to know about Benicio's character, or spending more time actually putting in some character and story development in Rose and Finn, or their supposed new found love....we got a stupid jail breakout (in jail because of parking ) scene, orphans boohoo, BB8 shooting casino coins and going Rambo on guards, and a stupid chase scene on the backs of camel dogs. No substance.

The scene felt like the only reason it existed was a way to get Finn and Rose on Snoke's ship so that Finn and Phasma could have their faceoff.

 

[Guestx]

Rey is recognized by a Jedi? By whom?

When Luke says ". . . and I will not be the last Jedi," who do you think he was talking about?

Lol how is she going to legitimately establish a Jedi order? She got like 2, 9 minute "lessons". She barely knows what a Jedi is, and she's going to teach others? From books?!? TLJ is so horrendously written.
Now that Luke is dead, Rey has no choice in the next movie to continue getting magically stronger because there is now no one around to teach her.

I'll agree that the training of Rey should've been handled better. If that's your contention, then you won't get any argument from me. But the movie DOES establish that Rey is now to be considered trained. Even Yoda says that Rey "has all she needs" or something to that effect.

Kylo is now the leader....and so what? What possible interesting thing could he want at this point? To rule the galaxy? Destroy the rebels? There is nothing interesting here.

LOL, you just shit on the entire original trilogy.

Finn COULD have been interesting. A stormtrooper turned rebel? How do you have that and waste it so epically? This guy starts the movie off being sickened by the violence of killing innocents. He could have been a leader and a hero, a complex character trying to redeem himself, free his "brother and sister" troopers...or be conflicted about fighting them...battle in his mind about the ideologies the empire put in his mind...there is a ton that could have been done..instead we got casino planet and camel dog racing..
This entire series is so awful the more i think about it and what it could have been

I'll agree with that. But don't forget that this is an UNFOLDING story, with TLJ being a mere chapter in the bigger picture. TLJ may be the film where there is no time to stop and ponder these greater questions of life because imminent destruction is at hand; rather it will be Ep IX where things slow down enough to go deeper with things.

I've had to make this same point in the past few days about The Phantom Menace, that in order to judge it correctly, it must be judged IN CONTEXT with the rest of the story.

We really won't know how to properly understand TLJ until Episode IX is released.

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

Hi, are you new?

 

[Guestx]

HOW it was done was the problem.
The plan in and of itself wasn't the stupidest thing.
But what was given was entirely hollow.

We have to go to casino world to get a hacker to get inside the bad guy's ship...
A bit convoluted, but, i was on board with the plan when it was first discussed.
HOW they actually executed that entire plot was just mind numbingly stupid and a complete waste.

Instead of spending time getting to know some of these supposed rich, asshole, war profiteers, or getting to know about Benicio's character, or spending more time actually putting in some character and story development in Rose and Finn, or their supposed new found love....we got a stupid jail breakout (in jail because of parking ) scene, orphans boohoo, BB8 shooting casino coins and going Rambo on guards, and a stupid chase scene on the backs of camel dogs. No substance.

The scene felt like the only reason it existed was a way to get Finn and Rose on Snoke's ship so that Finn and Phasma could have their faceoff.

I would agree that some parts of it were dumb (parking?!) but I don't think it's nearly as big of a deal as some of you guys are making it out to be.

Let me ask you this, in this 155 minute film, how much of that time do you think is spent on Canto Bight? Maybe 15 minutes?

 

[spamking]

Raise your hands if you didn't like THE LAST JEDI because ain't no more good White dudes to identify with. Stand up and be counted.

You don't honestly believe that do you? I haven't read the entire thread, but have folks actually complained about the main characters no longer being white men?

 

[minute bull]

Hi, are you new?

NO, I AM YOUR FATHER

Spoiler: fanfare

You don't honestly believe that do you? I haven't read the entire thread, but have folks actually complained about the main characters no longer being white men?

No, I don't.

But the complaints are more like "Why didn't they keep the hot Asian?" and "SJWs can go fuck themselves yo." What's that sound like to you?

 

[SmilinDesperado]

When Luke says ". . . and I will not be the last Jedi," who do you think he was talking about?



I'll agree that the training of Rey should've been handled better. If that's your contention, then you won't get any argument from me. But the movie DOES establish that Rey is now to be considered trained. Even Yoda says that Rey "has all she needs" or something to that effect.



LOL, you just shit on the entire original trilogy.



I'll agree with that. But don't forget that this is an UNFOLDING story, with TLJ being a mere chapter in the bigger picture. TLJ may be the film where there is no time to stop and ponder these greater questions of life because imminent destruction is at hand; rather it will be Ep IX where things slow down enough go deeper with things.

I've had to make this same point in the past few days about The Phantom Menace, that in order to judge it correctly, it must be judged IN CONTEXT with the rest of the story.

We really won't know how to properly understand TLJ until Episode IX is released.

Luke also said it was time to end the Jedi...and then him and Yoda burn the Jedi tree down...so i really don't know what to think.
And Luke's last words to Rey weren't about her being a jedi. Lol and how could she ever really call herself one with no teacher?

At least poser Kylo had a master in Snoke, and Luke.

Yes, the movie does say that Rey is ready, but this is my problem with the movie. Things just ARE. There is no logical reason or explanation for them. Rey should not be ready to do anything. She did 5 minutes of closing her eyes and got a brief history lesson on the Force...and she has all she needs to save the galaxy!?! It is baffling why you (a writer/director) would not have Luke actually train her instead of giving her some old Jedi bibles to read.

The problem with the unfolding story is that this movie #2 of 3. #1 was dog shit. Number 2 went in a totally different direction, and now #3 will be done by the person that did #1. How can we look at these movies as a package when they aren't?
Rian clearly did his own thing in his movie. He and Abrams had different visions and goals. This won't be like looking back on Phantom Menace

 

[minute bull]

The fucking Jedi are not there to save the galaxy. Hubris: lesson 2.

Spoiler: Coming up with plot holes??

Please come down off your house of cards.

 

[Guestx]

Luke also said it was time to end the Jedi...and then him and Yoda burn the Jedi tree down...so i really don't know what to think.
And Luke's last words to Rey weren't about her being a jedi. Lol and how could she ever really call herself one with no teacher?

Yes, the movie does say that Rey is ready, but this is my problem with the movie. Things just ARE. There is no logical reason or explanation for them. Rey should not be ready to do anything. She did 5 minutes of closing her eyes and got a brief history lesson on the Force...and she has all she needs to save the galaxy!?! It is baffling why you (a writer/director) would not have Luke actually train her instead of giving her some old Jedi bibles to read.

Well like I said, we should've gotten a better training sequence. I mentioned before that I wanted a Rocky-style montage. Give me a montage of her learning to use the light saber, learning to manipulate the Force, and learning some of the philosophical teachings of the Jedi. That would've been AWESOME and a lot better than what we got.

But the way that I have resolved it in my own head is that we just don't see all the training. He says that he will train her and we know she spends a lot of time on the island with him. Is it too much to infer that training was proceeding while we were checking in on other storylines? If he wasn't training her during that time, then what were they doing?

The problem with the unfolding story is that this movie #2 of 3. #1 was dog shit. Number 2 went in a totally different direction, and now #3 will be done by the person that did #1. How can we look at these movies as a package when they aren't?
Rian clearly did his own thing in his movie. He and Abrams had different visions and goals. This won't be like looking back on Phantom Menace

I think it's going to be on JJ to make it all feel cohesive. Can he pull it all together narratively so that in the end the trilogy feels like a single unit that flows from one film to the next? Only time will tell.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

I would agree that some parts of it were dumb (parking?!) but I don't think it's nearly as big of a deal as some of you guys are making it out to be.

Let me ask you this, in this 155 minute film, how much of that time do you think is spent on Canto Bight? Maybe 15 minutes?

The biggest offense isn't the 15 minutes that that scene was, the biggest problem was that that scene existed INSTEAD of much needed information and character bonding/building time that was direly needed.

That wasted 15 minutes could have been a good solid 8 minutes of Luke and Rey bonding and training. A 3 minute real duel between Luke and Ren. 5 minutes of Finn actually doing something useful and talking about his motivations ( as of right now, he just seems like a Rey stalker. His attachment to her makes little sense...as does Rose's love for Finn) Could have spent 3 minutes on giving Chewy something cooler to do than spending all his time with Porgs. Could have spent 5 minutes on giving the Laura Dern character more than one personality setting than "uber bitch". Etc etc etc
The casino plot could have been entirely omitted and nothing would have changed in the ending of the movie. So why have it when you could have done so much better, interesting things with that precious time?

 

[liljoe]

You mean on that one site?

If it was an honest score it would be more inline with IMDB.

 

[Guestx]

The biggest offense isn't the 15 minutes that that scene was, the biggest problem was that that scene existed INSTEAD of much needed information and character bonding/building time that was direly needed.

That wasted 15 minutes could have been a good solid 8 minutes of Luke and Rey bonding and training. A 3 minute real duel between Luke and Ren. 5 minutes of Finn actually doing something useful and talking about his motivations ( as of right now, he just seems like a Rey stalker. His attachment to her makes little sense...as does Rose's love for Finn) Could have spent 3 minutes on giving Chewy something cooler to do than spending all his time with Porgs. Could have spent 5 minutes on giving the Laura Dern character more than one personality setting than "uber bitch". Etc etc etc
The casino plot could have been entirely omitted and nothing would have changed in the ending of the movie. So why have it when you could have done so much better, interesting things with that precious time?

I understand where you're coming from. But I did think it was cool to get introduced to a new world. Without that we basically get two environments throughout the whole film: metallic space ship interiors and the island. That's it.

I enjoyed getting away from all of that and exploring this new place a bit.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

But the way that I have resolved it in my own head is that we just don't see all the training. He says that he will train her and we know she spends a lot of time on the island with him. Is it too much to infer that training was proceeding while we were checking in on other storylines? If he wasn't training her during that time, then what were they doing?

I think it's going to be on JJ to make it all feel cohesive. Can he pull it all together narratively so that in the end the trilogy feels like a single unit that flows from one film to the next? Only time will tell.

YES.
You have made Rey super powerful with ZERO explanation. She has no known lineage to a strong Force user, didn't know what the Force was, bested Kylo in the Force and with a light saber in the first movie, and event beat Luke in a stick fight.
You cannot expect the audience to just infer that training happened.

This whole Force power is based on having a master teach and guide you. How do you get rid of that and replace it with books and off screen inference?

After the 2nd lesson, Luke gets freaked out by Rey not trying to fight the dark side and says "fuck this", there is no reason to believe there was any practical training going on


I don't see how JJ can make this look like it was all one big planned story. There are ginormous differences in the way he and Rian took the stories of characters. There is 1 movie left to "fix" things while also telling a compelling story

 

[sickc0d3r]

People keep using "world building" as a defense to that scene as if anybody would be against the idea of richening the SW universe.
A plutocracy that we know nothing about. Who are all these rich aliens to us? Why should we care about what they do? They are faceless rich people.
Who cares about these random, dirty orphan kids? How are they going to represent the future Resistance? Is the next movie going to be set 20 years in the future? How long is this resistance going to last? Isn't the empire left pretty weak by the end of the movie?

Finn had no choice to help. He tried to escape and was tazed. And he never was portrayed as a selfish character. He left the Stormtroopers because he didn't want to kill. And considering that his and Rey's relationship has never been really solidified as to what it is, it makes no sense to continue focusing on it and then never defining or addressing it.

All of these things youre saying were just dimb filler points. Im not saying nothing happened. Yes, people talked, and met, and things happened. ..but they were all stupid. It was a lousy story that should have been a lot better and interesting than it was. It was pointless

It's fine if you don't like the story, but objectively it isn't pointless.

Going back to TFA, Finn was a runner. He's a good person, but he wanted no part of fighting the order. He was trying to leave the rebels from the jump, and would have if it weren't for Rey. In TLJ he was ready to abandon the rebels and lure Rey away from their "lost cause" in the first 15 minutes, for chrissakes. By the end of his little sub plot he was motivated and ready to die for them. He corrected chrome dome with "REBEL" scum. The entire sub plot existed to advance his character.

I don't know what more you think you should know about the profiteers at this point. What we got was a glimpse of some of the mechanics behind the war. Weapons being sold to both sides. Monied aliens living it up while the battles are waged to their profit. I liked this take and of course it is tied into current events. They even stuck some both side-ism in there, making BDT the first space libertarian.


"Random dirty orphan kids"? The orphans represented the future of the cause, and apparently the jedi, too. Their wide eyed, innocent visages were further motivation for Finn, and some background for Rose. You guys are too damn cynical. It's Star Wars. And Disney. The stories are going to be straightforward and contain clear, unsophisticated messages that the kiddos can appreciate.

 

[Guestx]

YES.
You have made Rey super powerful with ZERO explanation. She has no known lineage to a strong Force user, didn't know what the Force was, bested Kylo in the Force and with a light saber in the first movie, and event beat Luke in a stick fight.
You cannot expect the audience to just infer that training happened.

This whole Force power is based on having a master teach and guide you. How do you get rid of that and replace it with books and off screen inference?

After the 2nd lesson, Luke gets freaked out by Rey not trying to fight the dark side and says "fuck this", there is no reason to believe there was any practical training going on


I don't see how JJ can make this look like it was all one big planned story. There are ginormous differences in the way he and Rian took the stories of characters. There is 1 movie left to "fix" things while also telling a compelling story

I think here's the difference between us:

It's not we disagree on everything, it's whether or not we feel like we can still enjoy the movie despite its flaws.

I acknowledge the problems, but still think it's an entertaining film. You, on the other hand, feel like the flaws are too great and they do fatal harm to the movie.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

I understand where you're coming from. But I did think it was cool to get introduced to a new world. Without that we basically get two environments throughout the whole film: metallic space ship interiors and the island. That's it.

I enjoyed getting away from all of that and exploring this new place a bit.

Fair enough.

And while i get what you're saying, i think youre settling for poop. You see this as "well, it was better to have this 3rd thing instead of only 2", and im seeing this as..."you guys have the money and time to do whatever you want, create whatever you want...and this is what you came up with? I gave you a million dollars and a year to come up with an excellent project to enter into the Science fair, and you made an erupting baking soda volcano that you googled how to make"