STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

[WAR_CLAY_GUIDA!!]

I think a problem a lot of people have with Rogue One personally is that we've gotten out of the habit of letting films grow on us. The original Starwars films for me are the classic example of this, they came out in the era of cheap tickets and long runs were watching them half a dozen times wasn't uncommon then they were watched endlessly on VHS, Cable, DVD, etc.

Empire Strikes Back espsically is I film that really benefits from that, were it released these days the likes of Chirs Stuckman would probably rubbish it claiming much of the middle were Luke's training with Yoda and the Han/leia romance is building without much action was dull.

Honestly I'm very much on the liberial side of things politically but Rey is a total Mary Sue in TFA, amazing really just how closely she fits that mold. Again I think politics here is used as a cheap shield for weak writing, Rey ends up more as a vessel for collective nostalgia than a character, she might as well be a guide in a Starwars theme park for much of it.

Its getting repetitive I know but again Rogue One shows you the difference, a well written female lead who doesn't need to develop a new insane power ever 5 mins or constantly rub your nose in its supposed equality.

Yeah, i'm sort of down the middle politically. But i don't like having any of that bullshit feminist message shoved down my throat. In a star wars movie no less. I'll care about Rey if you give me reasons too. I can't relate to here other than she's just a poor girl left behind by shitty parents. Thats just enough on its own. She's clearly tough and can take care of herself. But other than that, there are no flaws, no weaknesses. She never gets tempted by the dark side in a dangerous way. Shes fucking bland. Shes going to kick kylos ass in the next one and the galaxy will be saved. Though snoke might be back, and maybe kylo steps his game up enough to be at least a tiny bit threatening. Vader failed in the OT but he was also the only mother fucking in the entire Empire that could get shit done in-spite of the incompetent dicks that were commanding the fleet. And in empire fucks the good guys up pretty bad. Kylo has done nothing of note other than getting his ass handed to him time and time again.

 

[ShinkanPo]

This is worst than Phantom atleast Phantom we get to see the early Obi Wan as sort of an apprentice to Qui Gon and we get to see Death Maul! and even though Phantom can becorny it made us excited for the next Episode and see how will Anakin turn out.

It also gave us glimpse of how the Emperor Palatine started his political dominance!

But this Last Jedi is just bad it did not make want to watch the next starwars film

 

[shockaholic12]

oh i see what you mean.

the twisty surprise was Kylo killing snoke, not to save rey and bring in the light side, but taking an opportunity to become the master.

I mean, if that's what it was, ok, it is just hard for me to become convinced of it. Not saying that is NOT what happenef, im saying that either the character being written as a cry baby is lousy or that Adam driver presented the character in that way, imitating anakin before him. Either way, it didnt come off to me as evil, a force to be reckoned with, or a new challenge going forward.

thanks for explain ing.

And leihas moment was cringey.

Yea, next flick will be interesting because right now Kylo is nowhere as intimidating as Vader as a villain. Vader was an older man in ROTJ, more experienced dark jedi and killer. Anakin did act really Emo like Kylo when he was closer to Kylo’s current age but had all those decades to become a stone cold killer we all feared.


The newer flicks are in some ways not as dark as the originals. Studio back then just wasn’t as hyper focused on appealing to the whole fam I guess. But the scene where Rey and Kylo are mind meeting and she’s like “do you mind putting on a shirt?” made me chuckle it was so out of place. They picked some weirdly dramatic places to make random jokes.

 

[puppybird]

We don't need big plot twists, but don't foreshadow one if there isn't any.

It’s like telling a girl you are hung and then pulling out a full 2 inches. Lol

Actually this pretty much sums up the movie for me. Rian Johnson has no penis

 

[Myrddin Wild]

Thank you, that makes it a little easier to understand. I think some of this being discussed in the both the movies would go a long way into fleshing out the story. Not everyone has time or resources to read up on the additional novels and comics. So some of this making its way into the movie even just bits and pieces would have made a huge difference. And give people more a sense of how off guard and on the toes the resistance and republic really were. Also adding more depth and size to the galaxy and conflict.

Yeah, for sure... I agree. Not everyone gets into the books like that. Perhaps a prequil about it all will be in order. Also to give us the Snoke backstory.

I didn't get to as many of the books as I intended too... but prior to watching TLJ, I went on a mission to learn about the first order & what's going on in the political structure of the galaxy... & got a nice bit of info from the Wookieepedia page on the First Order & also the page from The New Republic. It's quite a long read... but if you figure that it's a collection of information from about 10 or more different full Canon novels, it becomes much easier to sit for an hour or so & take it all in.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Yeah, i'm sort of down the middle politically. But i don't like having any of that bullshit feminist message shoved down my throat. In a star wars movie no less. I'll care about Rey if you give me reasons too. I can't relate to here other than she's just a poor girl left behind by shitty parents. Thats just enough on its own. She's clearly tough and can take care of herself. But other than that, there are no flaws, no weaknesses. She never gets tempted by the dark side in a dangerous way. Shes fucking bland. Shes going to kick kylos ass in the next one and the galaxy will be saved. Though snoke might be back, and maybe kylo steps his game up enough to be at least a tiny bit threatening. Vader failed in the OT but he was also the only mother fucking in the entire Empire that could get shit done in-spite of the incompetent dicks that were commanding the fleet. And in empire fucks the good guys up pretty bad. Kylo has done nothing of note other than getting his ass handed to him time and time again.

I'm fine with a well told feminist story but to me this kind of stuff is the opposite of that. Search online and you'll find plenty of feminist women who hate the "strong woman" cliché were all a character has is competence because its lazy writing. True equality is writing female characters who are as interesting as male ones and ironically I think Leia in the originals was much better written than Rey in the sequels.

Honestly if anything I find good female leads in these kind of films have more potential because they have a wider emotional range. Not so much of an issue in serious drama but blockbusters are working more in emotional shorthand. I spose partly because with age I tend towards viewing this stuff less as personal wish fulfilment as well.

 

[fastone]

"For those of us who were willing to let the movie take us wherever it wanted to go it was a highly enjoyable experience. You can accept that this is possible without being a fan of shit like Transformers, or not."
-sickcod3r

This is key... I went with my son and his friends. I cleared my mind of all expectations and watched the film with the desire to be entertained. We had fun and enjoyed some star wars porn. More of you should try it.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

I think from the books we have info those planets held the Senate and the 'new Empire' fleet so that was the biggest win possible for the bad guys that is why we are left with so few forces and resources.

Basically it was some sort of shady truce until it wasn't. Snoke and the remnants of the Old Empire enslaved / developed a bunch of places in the unknown regions and they built and grow extremely well for 30 years until they came back in force and had that major power play / surprise attack.. Leia saw the upcoming dangers and was trying to get everyone to react but she was to late.

I think you mis-understand what was going on at that time. There was no "New Republic Fleet" or military... the senate was very much against a centralized military in fear of a Palpatine coming in to control it. So the official military force existed as hundreds or even thousands of individual hubs that are controlled by the planets they are from. In other words... they didn't just park their entire force at the capital. I outlined it in more detail here. http://forums.sherdog.com/posts/136966555/

The rebellion was pretty much an illegal group that Leia & others used when the senate didn't play ball.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

"For those of us who were willing to let the movie take us wherever it wanted to go it was a highly enjoyable experience. You can accept that this is possible without being a fan of shit like Transformers, or not."
-sickcod3r

This is key... I went with my son and his friends. I cleared my mind of all expectations and watched the film with the desire to be entertained. We had fun and enjoyed some star wars porn. More of you should try it.

If all I wanted was a reasonably fun one off diversion yeah I would say the film is decent enough, not the best blockbuster this year by along long way but passable with some interesting moments, a lot of the negative reaction is in relation to the esteem the original SW films are held in. The Godfather part 3 is not a bad gangster film at all taken by itself but still its a clear disappointment relative to the first two films.

Personally I didn't really care about any of Abrams empty "mystery's" although I think this film does confirm he didn't have any idea where they were going and more importantly that he was using them to cover a lack of depth in character and setting. My issues with TLJ are vastly less about what it attempts to do and vastly more about how it does it which to me is often highly questionable although again I put a good deal of the blame for that on TFA.

 

[TrueBias]

Yea, next flick will be interesting because right now Kylo is nowhere as intimidating as Vader as a villain. Vader was an older man in ROTJ, more experienced dark jedi and killer. Anakin did act really Emo like Kylo when he was closer to Kylo’s current age but had all those decades to become a stone cold killer we all feared.


The newer flicks are in some ways not as dark as the originals. Studio back then just wasn’t as hyper focused on appealing to the whole fam I guess. But the scene where Rey and Kylo are mind meeting and she’s like “do you mind putting on a shirt?” made me chuckle it was so out of place. They picked some weirdly dramatic places to make random jokes.

The shirt gag was deliberate so that we. the audience, know that they can actually see each other, instead of just hearing.

 

[Fedorgasm]

Guys you have to appreciate what a tough spot rian Johnson was in when it comes to handling Luke.

Everyone was expecting him to fly in and wipe out the entire fleet of walkers with a wave of his hand.

But if he did that, it would undermine the power of the first order... Or the empire, or any army for that matter. Because why raise an army if a Jedi can wipe them out with a thought?

Then audiences will wonder why Luke doesn't just wipe out the entire first order in one day, since it's so easy.

Unfortunately, the EU, and games like the force unleashed have given people this idea that you can become so powerful with the force that you can bring down star destroyers with a flick of the wrist.

So if someone can do that, then surely Luke can. But if we show Luke doing that, then how the hell would he die? Kylo is no threat to him. Any type of death you give Luke would seem dumb, because nobody should be strong enough to kill a guy that can wipe out a fleet in 2 seconds.

Rian HAD to somehow stop the power creep and make Luke weaker, not stronger.

 

[fastone]

If all I wanted was a reasonably fun one off diversion yeah I would say the film is decent enough, not the best blockbuster this year by along long way but passable with some interesting moments, a lot of the negative reaction is in relation to the esteem the original SW films are held in. The Godfather part 3 is not a bad gangster film at all taken by itself but still its a clear disappointment relative to the first two films.

Personally I didn't really care about any of Abrams empty "mystery's" although I think this film does confirm he didn't have any idea where they were going and more importantly that he was using them to cover a lack of depth in character and setting. My issues with TLJ are vastly less about what it attempts to do and vastly more about how it does it which to me is often highly questionable although again I put a good deal of the blame for that on TFA.

Agreed, guess what I'm saying is that watching with a different state of mind made it more enjoyable for me. I literally lol'd during parts of the prequels and thought TFA was a waste of my evening.

 

[sickc0d3r]

I.....i cant believe.

Did you just say TLJ is as enjoyable as Interstellar?


Ok, im having a hard time..... you guys are just having your fun way with me.

71% fan reviews on your favorite website, RT. Not bad but not great, right?

 

[WAR_CLAY_GUIDA!!]

I'm fine with a well told feminist story but to me this kind of stuff is the opposite of that. Search online and you'll find plenty of feminist women who hate the "strong woman" cliché were all a character has is competence because its lazy writing. True equality is writing female characters who are as interesting as male ones and ironically I think Leia in the originals was much better written than Rey in the sequels.

Honestly if anything I find good female leads in these kind of films have more potential because they have a wider emotional range. Not so much of an issue in serious drama but blockbusters are working more in emotional shorthand. I spose partly because with age I tend towards viewing this stuff less as personal wish fulfilment as well.

Leia was the strong female role they needed. She didn't just sit back and bark orders. She got in there and blasted some storm troopers herself. She had to make a very hard choice in a New Hope, though Alderaan was doomed either way. She put her own life at risk for the rebellion. Rey pales in comparison if you ask me.

As far as the new movies and how they're received and the expectations going in. I'd say that i had low expectations going in and was still disappointed. To simply say there should be no expectations or a standard held is hog wash in my book. Don't bother making sequels to a well regarded saga like Star Wars if you simply are tired of that arc. And want to change things for the sake of giving a huge fuck you to long time fans. For that you should have wrote the story far enough after return of the jedi where you didnt have to include the old characters.

TFA was far from perfect and limiting. But to just act as if it didn't happen in the next movie just throws off the entire story and takes you out of it. The OT aren't perfect films by any stretch. But the story they tell is far more developed and engaging. I've watched OT more times than i can count. I even have the newly restored theatrical releases and watch them from time to time. They just did a better job of putting you in the fight and making you care. And though some in this thread get on empire for the middle lull in action, i think it just makes the final act that much better. The calm before the storm if you will. I don't feel bored watching that movie. Vader and Lukes battle at the end, is better than any thing from any of the prequels or new sequels. i've said this many times already, but fuck this movie.

 

[CoolB]

If Ray should have been more like Leia then she wouldn't have been written as a junker/slave. Leia was a princess in a time of conflict. It's not hard to believe she was trained and raised to be stronger in the face of adversity. A junker has been taking orders all her life and being made to be subservient while trying to survive. This made her physically tough but her mental state was one that needed molding. It's not really a fair comparison.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Guys you have to appreciate what a tough spot rian Johnson was in when it comes to handling Luke.

Everyone was expecting him to fly in and wipe out the entire fleet of walkers with a wave of his hand.

But if he did that, it would undermine the power of the first order... Or the empire, or any army for that matter. Because why raise an army if a Jedi can wipe them out with a thought?

Then audiences will wonder why Luke doesn't just wipe out the entire first order in one day, since it's so easy.

Unfortunately, the EU, and games like the force unleashed have given people this idea that you can become so powerful with the force that you can bring down star destroyers with a flick of the wrist.

So if someone can do that, then surely Luke can. But if we show Luke doing that, then how the hell would he die? Kylo is no threat to him. Any type of death you give Luke would seem dumb, because nobody should be strong enough to kill a guy that can wipe out a fleet in 2 seconds.

Rian HAD to somehow stop the power creep and make Luke weaker, not stronger.

I don't think this was really the issue for most people and if anything Luke becomes more powerful than previously with the ability to project across the entire galaxy.

The force use of the OT never really gave the indication that one person could destroy entire armies head on, rather it gave the impression that the strength of force users came from there ability to use there powers judiciously more behind the scenes to manipulate events, hence ultimately having a bigger impact than super weapons like the Death Star.

The problem I think is much more Luke's character who seems to have regressed in terms of wisdom, bravey, etc in a similar fashion to Han in TFA. It could have been down to Disney meddling not wanting to change the status quo too much but whats lacking in this film is a purpose for Luke's isolation beyond just running from his problems(such as developing new methods of training/philosophy beyond the traditional Jedi). You can see with Obi Wan in the originals that failure with Vader had bred wisdom and that he'd not given up the fight watching over Luke and coming to the Rebels help when called on.

This to me actually makes the twist about Kylo less impactful, Luke in TLJ is so flawed relative to the OT its really not supprising where as again if this was a dark secret that pushed him to wisdom but comes back to haught his new student it would be a lot more impactful.

 

[ShinkanPo]

I think a problem a lot of people have with Rogue One personally is that we've gotten out of the habit of letting films grow on us. The original Starwars films for me are the classic example of this, they came out in the era of cheap tickets and long runs were watching them half a dozen times wasn't uncommon then they were watched endlessly on VHS, Cable, DVD, etc.

Empire Strikes Back espsically is I film that really benefits from that, were it released these days the likes of Chirs Stuckman would probably rubbish it claiming much of the middle were Luke's training with Yoda and the Han/leia romance is building without much action was dull.

Honestly I'm very much on the liberial side of things politically but Rey is a total Mary Sue in TFA, amazing really just how closely she fits that mold. Again I think politics here is used as a cheap shield for weak writing, Rey ends up more as a vessel for collective nostalgia than a character, she might as well be a guide in a Starwars theme park for much of it.

Its getting repetitive I know but again Rogue One shows you the difference, a well written female lead who doesn't need to develop a new insane power ever 5 mins or constantly rub your nose in its supposed equality.

Yeah Rogue one is much better than T.L.J

Oh Felicity Jones is hotter than Daisy Riddley, I mean Daisy is cute and all but Felicity!!

 

[TrueBias]

71% fan reviews on your favorite website, RT. Not bad but not great, right?

as long as its better than TLJ and will likely be more than a 20 point difference when this silly run is over.

 

[TrueBias]

Yeah Rogue one is much better than T.L.J

Oh Felicity Jones is hotter than Daisy Riddley, I mean Daisy is cute and all but Felicity!!

Hang on now...

TLJ <<<<<<<<<<<Rogue one
Daisy >>>>>>>>>>>>>Felicity

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Hang on now...

TLJ <<<<<<<<<<<Rogue one
Daisy >>>>>>>>>>>>>Felicity

Jones for me but equally the character did feel a bit more believable, I mean this is Hollywood were everyone is abnormally good looking but I could buy her as former Rebel criminal more than I could buy Ridley as a junker.