STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

[One MMA Fan]

Darth Maul was a bad ass. You underestimate the ability to best Mr. Jinn

Mr. Gin had to much to drink no contest.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

Mr. Gin had to much to drink no contest.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

Not a Sith

Rather than dive into the long EU lore, I'll just point out that every Sith that's appeared in a Star Wars film was...

1. Evil.
2. Dressed in black.
3. Had a red lightsaber.
4. Tried to kill good guys.

And all four if these apply to Kylo Ren.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

Rather than dive into the long EU lore, I'll just point out that every Sith that's appeared in a Star Wars film was...

1. Evil.
2. Dressed in black.
3. Had a red lightsaber.
4. Tried to kill good guys.

And all four if these apply to Kylo Ren.

F*ck... you're right. Kylo does dress in black.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

F*ck... you're right. Kylo does dress in black.

<Lmaoo>


Oh, I forgot one.

5. Wears a metal mask/helmet.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

<Lmaoo>


Oh, I forgot one.

5. Wears a metal mask/helmet.

 

[IamStryker]

IMO... This is a trilogy that does not need every "i" dotted & every T crossed. There's a whole 1/3 of the story left to tell. They just left that bit for the next one.

This is just an excuse for bad writing in this movie. What you are saying is I can't defend this so I am hoping the next movie will somehow make it better. Saying to wait for the next movie is not a defense for problems in this movie.

I get that Snoke was "the head villian..." & his power was sic & I wanted to see more of it... but he wasn't ever a main character so he does not absolutely need a backstory described in act 2. or it will trash the movie for me. Kylo is the villain you were meant to engage with... not Snoke.

Snoke is the head villain so therefore he is essentially a main character. Snoke was a main character just how the emperor was a main character in empire and return. Your argument is to basically disregard Snoke because the movie disregarded him. Again I don't see how that is a defense for this clear example of bad writing. Snoke COULD have been interesting, he COULD have been awesome but he wasn't. He was a tease that was thrown away in a ridiculous manner. I'm not saying we needed a long explanation on him but giving us nothing and then killing him like that was pathetic. It made no sense. Honestly the movie could have made more sense if Snoke didn't exist at all.

Heck, me & my buddies sat around for 2 years trying to figure out who he was. lol... it took me a bit of shell shock to get over that we still don't know... but I've discussed this at depth... & had a plank over the head moment where I realized he was never a main character. I've seen the movie probably 6 times by now & I'm completely fine.

I'm definitely not trying to convince you to not like the movie. Enjoy it as much as you want. Enjoy any part of it as much as you want. Claiming he isn't a main character is nonsense. The reason people cared so much to know who he was is because he obviously was a main character. You didn't sit around wondering for two years because he was an unimportant side character. He was Kylo's master, super powerful, perhaps the reason Kylo is evil. Snoke only became nothing when they killed him in such a flippant manner. That was poor story telling.

I think it's the 2 year wait & all the anticipation of who he is that had given the illusion that he was more of a major character than he was... but if you get over that pretense & just accept that he was never a main character... then it's fine. We still want to know his back-story obviously... but whether it's told in act 2 or 3 isn't important. I can dig the mystery.

You are still assuming that they are going to give a good back story on a character that is dead and you claim wasn't a main character. You also said you would be upset if they ignored Snoke in the third movie. So you admit that he wasn't handled well in this movie and you want the third movie to fix it. That's my point. They did a bad job with Snoke in every way possible.

I thought he was an amazing character. I think he was so amazing that is why you are rebelling so hard against the fact that he got killed like that & without backstory. I suppose you are saying that it's because he was amazing & got killed in such a way is why I should think that he was not a good character? I feel that him getting killed doesn't change the fact that he's a great character.

He was powerful and mysterious but his character was garbage and that's the fault of the movie I don't know shit about him and he apparently died from a silly trick from Kylo. A major character getting killed when we don't know anything about him is obviously a problem. A problem you yourself admit because you want to know more about him in the next movie even though he is dead and you somehow think he wasn't a main character.

Again there's more story to be told & more context to be given.

Again this is a garbage excuse for bad writing in this movie.

It's such a fine little detail we disagree on here... but that's my main feeling regarding Snoke... & I'm fine waiting for the final act. I do 100% agree that the finale needs to address him being killed like that... & I will be in full agreement with you if they do not.

Its odd that you will admit that he is a bad character if they ignore him in the next movie but you won't simply admit it right now. All I want you to admit is that right now in the context of these two movies he is not a good character. Hardly anyone likes him because he got no real character development and was killed from a silly trick.

Kylo tricking him is in direct opposition to the words that he just spoke where he describes seeing his every intention. I don't buy the fact that writing that was a mistake. Like it never occurred to Rian that it would be in direct conflict with the words Snoke just got done speaking. Like someone pointed it out after the movie was released & Rian did a face palm & was like "fook man I never thought of that." I don't buy that.

Just because he claims he can see his every intention doesn't mean he actually can. That's why he looked so stupid after saying that and getting killed. I don't find it hard to believe the writing was that bad when I see bad writing all over this movie. The entire plot of the first ordr chasing the resistance at the exact same speed is stupid. My next point I will be bringing up to you is extremely dumb and terrible writing. So yeah I believe they wrote the scene that badly. It was very silly and fans want to believe there is a deeper meaning because it was so bad.

Well, that's what we're in the process of discussing.

To me, what you are describing as "bad writing" is more to do with them splitting the story up rather than revealing everything in act 2.

Act 2 should be a good story without act 3. Snoke should be a good character without act 3. This should be common sense.

You don't like the mystery that they are asking us to accept until the next movie because you feel it leaves act 2 empty feeling. I get that but I just don't feel the same way. Act 2 concludes just fine to me without knowing this sub-character's back story. To me... it's just a bit of mystery that they're forwarding to the conclusion. They can knock it out of the park in act 3 & I'm good. Then it will be considered "good writing."

Again you claim he is a sub character even though you also say they need to explain him in the next movie. I'm not telling you how to enjoy the movie. I like movies that people rip apart as well but it's still obviously bad writing, bad story telling, bad character development. Act 2 doesn't just conclude without knowing much of his backstory. They kill him in silly fashion while telling us nothing about him. That is the problem. They could have kept his character going. Just given us enough to stay interested and then concluded his story in the next movie. Instead they threw him away as if he was nothing.

Kathleen Kennedy: No, because at that point we were sitting down and talking about where this might go, even as early on as with Michael Arndt. We were sort of plotting out, because obviously if you know up front that you’re building the pacing inside a trilogy structure, we needed to have some sense of where this saga was going without locking in on things and leaving room for creative development. But we had to have some sense of where we were going."

At the very least you gotta know that Rian didn't make the decision to undermine the Jedi/Sith religions. That's something that Disney is making all these other movies, tv series, novels, & comics about... so they have to have some reason for doing that... it's the central religion behind the whole universe & they aren't just going to nix it on the whim of a rebel writer/director. Likely "killing off the rebels" came from above as well. At the very least... I think we could agree that much was planned out.

Here are the options. Either they didn't collab and Rian did his own thing which resulted in a bad movie or they did collab a lot and somehow made it look like they didn't. Either way doesn't really matter to me. TLJ did a great job of putting in plots lines and stories that lead no where and felt like a waste of time.

 

[AlexDB9]

This is the coolest Star Wars shit I’ve seen in years, Star Wars blends in well with the anime style

 

[Clippy]

I need liquor

 

[Myrddin Wild]

This is just an excuse for bad writing in this movie. What you are saying is I can't defend this so I am hoping the next movie will somehow make it better. Saying to wait for the next movie is not a defense for problems in this movie.

Again... I'm not "defending" the movie.. I'm giving you my pov. The stuff that isn't told in this movie does not bother me the way it bothers you.

Snoke COULD have been interesting, he COULD have been awesome but he wasn't.

Now you're starting to get it. Snoke was never the character that we made him out to be in our own minds. Right after the movie... I was basically in the same mindframe as you. After some discussions & thinking about it, as well as another viewing... it hit me like a wooden plank over the head. "Snoke was never a main character." You just have not had that realization yet.

Honestly the movie could have made more sense if Snoke didn't exist at all.

Snoke's role was absolutely critical. You had to show a strong leader that can keep this huge military together while it was being built. He had to be stronger in the force than Kylo in order to make Kylo his number 2. That way, when Snoke dies... it all makes sense as to how this upper middle class kid became the leader of the biggest military force in the galaxy.

Its odd that you will admit that he is a bad character if they ignore him in the next movie but you won't simply admit it right now. All I want you to admit is that right now in the context of these two movies he is not a good character. Hardly anyone likes him because he got no real character development and was killed from a silly trick.

Thank you for pressing me on this issue with Snoke. When you asked me to consider Snoke's roll in these 2 movies... as if a 3rd wouldn't be made... I had another wood plank over the head moment.

I do not need Snoke's back story for this story to be complete. Knowing his backstory would not change his role in this story in any way. Basically, I'm just "curious" as to his back story, but by breaking it down like this... I see his backstory is 100% not relevant to the story. All we needed to feel from him was that he was powerful enough to build the military & was powerful enough with the force to make Kylo his apprentice & number 2 in charge. Done. Him dying is his final purpose & so Snokes roll has come full circle.

Act 2 should be a good story without act 3. Snoke should be a good character without act 3. This should be common sense.

I don't agree that you can't hold off some mystery from one movie to another. Almost every series of movies does that.

However, I have just realized that in no way do I "need" his back story for act 2 to be complete. Thank you. That might of saved me some issues if they failed to give his back story in act 3. As it is.... Snoke's place was to show how Kylo got into power. End of story. That's all we needed from Snoke. Act 2 is complete.

Snoke was a main character just how the emperor was a main character in empire and return

No way was the emperor more of a main character than Vader. Ever. & we had just as much information on the Emperor when he died as we did on Snoke when he died.

The reason people cared so much to know who he was is because he obviously was a main character. You didn't sit around wondering for two years because he was an unimportant side character. He was Kylo's master, super powerful, perhaps the reason Kylo is evil. Snoke only became nothing when they killed him in such a flippant manner. That was poor story telling.

Snoke had like 5 minutes of story time... as a hologram... in TFA, & we didn't know the first thing about him. You are correct that it was his position & the fact that he was Kylo's master is what got us sitting around talking about him for 2 years... but that 5 minutes of screen time does not make him a main character in the movie over Kylo. It's not even close. Kylo is the focus... & he's the main character. Your point that Snoke being ranked higher makes him the main character is flawed imo.

Snoke had more screen time in act 2... however, he still was never the focus. The focus has always been Kylo... who is now neatly placed at the helm of this huge miliary force & we all understand why & so that was Snoke's roll. I wish they would've given you something a little more toward your tastes to accept it... but I'm fine with it. I'm sure they will put Snoke's story in a novel or some other kind of media if they don't put it in act 3. I'm now fine with that. thank you.

If nothing else... most movie experiences can't shock me like this did... so it was unique in that. I totally didn't see that coming.

Maybe my little sister Jenny can explain it better.

1:24 - 2:15 - it's time stamped & only a 45 second spot before her "number 9" topic.

They could have kept his character going. Just given us enough to stay interested and then concluded his story in the next movie. Instead they threw him away as if he was nothing.

I actually really like the fact that they left it with Kylo being in charge of the First Order. That gets me a lot more excited for the final act than if Snoke was still in charge.

It completely separates it from being a replay of the original trilogy... & gives us a fresh bunch of possibilities.

The entire plot of the first ordr chasing the resistance at the exact same speed is stupid.

The First Order was going at "top speed..." the Raddus was not. The Raddus had to conserve fuel... so it went just fast enough to stay ahead of them without burning off excess fuel by going faster. This is actually very understandable.

It was also a very solid plan for the First Order. Had it not been for new technology on the Raddus... it would've worked perfectly. They could've never anticipated the failure, because the new innovative shield technology on the Raddus is what allowed Holdo's hyperspace missile to power through without ending up like a bug that hits the windshield. It's actually a very solid plan to just follow them till they run out of fuel.

Everything about that chase scene adds up.

 

[minute bull]

Again... I'm not "defending" the movie.. I'm giving you my pov. The stuff that isn't told in this movie does not bother me the way it bothers you.

When people say I'm defending this movie what they really mean is THEY'RE defending their standpoint because they're threatened by the fear of being wrong. Of having missed the film, which is something I truly enjoy and even love. It's an unshakable knowledge that I have no problem explicating, and explication is not defense. In my heart there is nothing that needs defense, and it amuses me when people keep throwing the word "argument" or "defense" in my face like that's supposed to, what? Convince me of what? It's not convincing me of a film I've already understood and appreciated -- it's to convince me of THEM.

The hilarious part is I want to be convinced of them -- and the disappointing part is so far most have fallen short of getting past the fundamental foundation of their dislike: the movie didn't show them what they wanted to see. It showed them something else. Other than that it's been garbage, and if garbage is what they spill out it's clear to me garbage is all they can allow themselves to see. Too bad, so sad. Oh well.

 

[IamStryker]

Again... I'm not "defending" the movie.. I'm giving you my pov. The stuff that isn't told in this movie does not bother me the way it bothers you.

The whole reason we are here is that you were supposed to defend the movie. I said it had bad writing, plot holes etc and you said it didn't and you could defend it. Are you back tracking from that now? Because I don't really have any interest in you just telling me why you liked the film. I don't care if you liked it. I am putting out real flaws and either you can defend those points or you can't.

Now you're starting to get it. Snoke was never the character that we made him out to be in our own minds. Right after the movie... I was basically in the same mindframe as you. After some discussions & thinking about it, as well as another viewing... it hit me like a wooden plank over the head. "Snoke was never a main character." You just have not had that realization yet.

No. He just wasn't a good character because the movie was written badly. Your justification is simply not true and nonsensical.

Snoke's role was absolutely critical. You had to show a strong leader that can keep this huge military together while it was being built. He had to be stronger in the force than Kylo in order to make Kylo his number 2. That way, when Snoke dies... it all makes sense as to how this upper middle class kid became the leader of the biggest military force in the galaxy.

Snokes role was critical......but he wasn't a main character. Yeah ok.

Thank you for pressing me on this issue with Snoke. When you asked me to consider Snoke's roll in these 2 movies... as if a 3rd wouldn't be made... I had another wood plank over the head moment.

I do not need Snoke's back story for this story to be complete. Knowing his backstory would not change his role in this story in any way. Basically, I'm just "curious" as to his back story, but by breaking it down like this... I see his backstory is 100% not relevant to the story. All we needed to feel from him was that he was powerful enough to build the military & was powerful enough with the force to make Kylo his apprentice & number 2 in charge. Done. Him dying is his final purpose & so Snokes roll has come full circle.

So now you are backtracking on the whole "wait till the next movie" line. You said specifically multiple times that you would riot in the streets if they didn't handle Snoke in the next movie and now it's "Naw I don't need to know". Well it wasn't a good defense anyway so I am still waiting on reasoning for how he wasn't a terrible character that wasn't even needed. It's amazing that you think him dying in ridiculous fashion was his "purpose". He was such a poor character that you claim he wasn't a main character and you don't even care who he was in the first place. How do you not see that as bad writing? Do you not realize that they could have made this movie without Snoke at all because he was so useless?

I don't agree that you can't hold off some mystery from one movie to another. Almost every series of movies does that.

Good because I never said that.

Snoke's place was to show how Kylo got into power. End of story. That's all we needed from Snoke. Act 2 is complete.

You can be ok with it and love the movie all you want. It's still wasting a character and terrible writing.

No way was the emperor more of a main character than Vader. Ever. & we had just as much information on the Emperor when he died as we did on Snoke when he died.

I never said he was more of a main character but he was still a main character. The difference is the movie gave him more lines to describe his motivations, and the best part is he didn't die to a stupid trick before the third movie. It built up to a finale and he died because Vader was protecting his son. This was the climax and it was a much more satisfying death. Not to mention we knew the emperor was a Sith. That right there is more information than we have on your "non main character Snoke".

Snoke had like 5 minutes of story time... as a hologram... in TFA, & we didn't know the first thing about him. You are correct that it was his position & the fact that he was Kylo's master is what got us sitting around talking about him for 2 years... but that 5 minutes of screen time does not make him a main character in the movie over Kylo. It's not even close. Kylo is the focus... & he's the main character. Your point that Snoke being ranked higher makes him the main character is flawed imo.

You keep saying stuff that I never said. He doesn't have to be more of a main character but his importance was obvious. Pretending that he was some kind of side character is nonsense and wishful thinking from someone who wants to believe this isn't a badly written movie.

Snoke had more screen time in act 2... however, he still was never the focus. The focus has always been Kylo... who is now neatly placed at the helm of this huge miliary force & we all understand why & so that was Snoke's roll. I wish they would've given you something a little more toward your tastes to accept it... but I'm fine with it. I'm sure they will put Snoke's story in a novel or some other kind of media if they don't put it in act 3. I'm now fine with that. thank you.

You keep retreating to the idea that Snoke wasn't really that important. He was only not important because the movie was terrible. He shouldn't have died like that and the movie should have given us some kind of information on him. That would have been better for the movie. This is only one example of the bad writing in this movie. When you put it all together that's when you see how the writers/director did such a shit job.

I actually really like the fact that they left it with Kylo being in charge of the First Order. That gets me a lot more excited for the final act than if Snoke was still in charge.

They threw away and interesting character and now there is less to care about in the next movie.

The First Order was going at "top speed..." the Raddus was not. The Raddus had to conserve fuel... so it went just fast enough to stay ahead of them without burning off excess fuel by going faster. This is actually very understandable.

One of the dumbest plot lines in any movie ever. If we keep this going maybe I will expand on that later.

If you have no defenses for Snoke other than that you personally don't have a problem with it then we I'm ready to move to the next point.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

The whole reason we are here is that you were supposed to defend the movie.

That was never a convo we had. I'm not sure I want to keep spending time expressing my point of view to you if you completely twist things like this.

I carefully read through all of your replys here & you have twisted almost everything I've said. Several times you completely ignored what I said. Plus you're getting more rude in your replies & so I'm fine dropping this conversation.

For example:

Snokes role was critical......but he wasn't a main character. Yeah ok.

Yes, obviously a character can have a critical role without being a main character. he does something that the main story & main characters critically need... but he is not a main character in himself.


This reply of yours is both rude... & wrong. I'll give you that Snoke was a medium level character at best... & that's only for the 2nd movie. He's way less than that in the 1st. the dude only got 5 minutes of screen time in the 1st act. I don't know why you don't understand that. Kylo is the focus... Snoke is just a tool to get Kylo in charge.

I would like to address the following before we drop the convo though

So now you are backtracking on the whole "wait till the next movie" line. You said specifically multiple times that you would riot in the streets if they didn't handle Snoke in the next movie and now it's "Naw I don't need to know".

Bro... I'm just being real. You & I are having a conversation & you pressured me to look at act 2 as if there was no act 3 & tell you what I thought of Snoke in that fantasy scenario... I did... & I now realize Snoke's back story makes no difference. I had an epiphany & changed my mind. Thank you for that. I no longer need to hear Snoke's back story because it's absolutely un-necessary for the story. I didn't realize that until you pressured me to look at it like that. Snoke's backstory has absolutely nothing to do with the plot. All we gotta know is that he's the man... we don't gotta know why. It's completely irrelevant to the story.

You have something in your head that says i need to "defend" or something. I'm just having a conversation.

Per your own words, that's not what you're looking for... so lets just be done.

 

[ChucksGlassJaw]

.

It's really annoying to listen to a person give their opinion without any merit. It's like listening to one of you guys. I much prefer Red Letter Media, Cinefix and Lessons From a Screenplay. They're reviewers that come from an actual film making background and break down the quality of a film from a technical standpoint without using qualifiers like "I think" ad nauseum.

 

[ChucksGlassJaw]

That was never a convo we had. I'm not sure I want to keep spending time expressing my point of view to you if you completely twist things like this.

I carefully read through all of your replys here & you have twisted almost everything I've said. Several times you completely ignored what I said. Plus you're getting more rude in your replies & so I'm fine dropping this conversation.

For example:


Yes, obviously a character can have a critical role without being a main character. he does something that the main story & main characters critically need... but he is not a main character in himself.

This reply of yours is both rude... & wrong. I'll give you that he was a medium level character at best. the dude only got 5 minutes of screen time in the 1st act. I don't know why you don't understand that.

I would like to address the following before we drop the convo though


Bro... I'm just being real. You & I are having a conversation & you pressured me to look at it a different way... I did... & I changed my mind. I had an epiphany. Thank you for that. I no longer need to hear Snoke's back story because it's absolutely un-necessary for the story. I didn't realize that until you pressured me to look at it like that. Snoke's backstory has absolutely nothing to do with the plot. All we gotta know is that he's the man... we don't gotta know why. It's completely irrelevant to the story.

You have something in your head that says i need to "defend" or something. I'm simply keeping things real with the way I feel.

Per your own words, that's not what you're looking for... so lets just be done.

There is no story. There's a series of incoherent scenes with no conflict and subplots that have absolutely zero bearing on whatever story they're trying to tell. Kylo Ren is conflicted. Rey is OP. That's where they started in TFA. That's where they are now. The First Order is strong and The Resistance is weak. Cool, that's how they both started in TFA. There is no development.

 

[minute bull]

There is no story. There's a series of incoherent scenes with no conflict and subplots that have absolutely zero bearing on whatever story they're trying to tell. Kylo Ren is conflicted. Rey is OP. That's where they started in TFA. That's where they are now. The First Order is strong and The Resistance is weak. Cool, that's how they both started in TFA. There is no development.

What's your film background?

 

[ChucksGlassJaw]

What's your film background?

I wasted 4 years in film school at Columbia College in Chicago. I'm no expert. I'm also not being used as a source and I'm not broadcasting my ramblings on Youtube.

 

[minute bull]

I wasted 4 years in film school at Columbia College in Chicago. I'm no expert. I'm also not being used as a source and I'm not broadcasting my ramblings on Youtube.

Still annoying.

 

[ChucksGlassJaw]

Still annoying.

And you're boringly contrarian.

 

[minute bull]

And you're boringly contrarian.

I WAS AGREEING WITH YOU RE: MERIT/ANNOYANCE!

See Post #4656, Columbia, to prevent embarrassing yourself further.