Movies STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS v.9 (Dragonlord's Review)

[J85909266]

Oh...ok blissfully ignorant. I too have a family and am happy as well!

I don't believe you.

Thankfully my enjoyment in life wasn't hinged on the success of Star Wars!

Also, liking TFA does not imply that my happiness depended on what you feel to be an underwhelming film.

That shit is some basic hipster haterade.

 

[Bob Gray]

I don't believe you.



Also, liking TFA does not imply that my happiness depended on what you feel to be an underwhelming film.

That shit is some basic hipster haterade.

He buys the two liter bottles for this thread alone.

 

[Mike]

Different = better? Maybe people wanted another Vader? I know it may sound so obvious and simple, but maybe that's just what they wanted?

Not necessarily but it's nonsensical to whine about the movie being too similar to ANH WHILE whining about the new villain being too different.

 

[BVG]

I don't believe you.



Also, liking TFA does not imply that my happiness depended on what you feel to be an underwhelming film.

That shit is some basic hipster haterade.

Not necessarily but it's nonsensical to whine about the movie being too similar to ANH WHILE whining about the new villain being too different.

I guess he wasn't different in a good way?

 

[Harmonica]

It's a valid criticism that the movie could have been more original. It's a bit of a stretch for people to say that makes it a 5/10 movie when everything was executed so well. It's also nonsensical when people are criticizing the new villain for not being more like Vader. Do you want new characters or not?

Not only that it could have been much more original but it also could have been much more realistic. Fin is a guy who was indoctrinated into hatred and violence from an early age, with no other model in his immediate surroundings to look up to, but he somehow managed to throw away all those dogmas he was brainwashed to believe in the second he had a taste of battle, because he knows right from wrong? Pure comedy. The more realistic scenario would be that he was eager to prove himself on the battlefield, being that young and full of hormones coupled with not having his moral compass fully developed. If they were so keen on making him switch teams, they should have made him a battle hardened veteran who got sick and tired of killing and therefore embarked on a quest in search for change.

 

[EvilDDS]

Some dude near Toronto posted this vid the other day, after a light dusting of snow. He had built his own Millennium Falcon drone and used it to clear his sidewalk. Wouldn't really work for a heavier snowfall though

 

[EvilDDS]

And started season 3 last night of the Clone Wars, and Ventress just became of my new favourite villains when she did this....

The kiss at the end of that had me laughing

 

[BVG]

Not only that it could have been much more original but it also could have been much more realistic. Fin is a guy who was indoctrinated into hatred and violence from an early age, with no other model in his immediate surroundings to look up to, but he somehow managed to throw away all those dogmas he was brainwashed to believe in the second he had a taste of battle, because he knows right from wrong? Pure comedy. The more realistic scenario would be that he was eager to prove himself on the battlefield, being that young and full of hormones coupled with not having his moral compass fully developed. If they were so keen on making him switch teams, they should have made him a battle hardened veteran who got sick and tired of killing and therefore embarked on a quest in search for change.

Not a bad angle.

 

[sickc0d3r]

Not only that it could have been much more original but it also could have been much more realistic. Fin is a guy who was indoctrinated into hatred and violence from an early age, with no other model in his immediate surroundings to look up to, but he somehow managed to throw away all those dogmas he was brainwashed to believe in the second he had a taste of battle, because he knows right from wrong? Pure comedy. The more realistic scenario would be that he was eager to prove himself on the battlefield, being that young and full of hormones coupled with not having his moral compass fully developed. If they were so keen on making him switch teams, they should have made him a battle hardened veteran who got sick and tired of killing and therefore embarked on a quest in search for change.

It makes sense for a guy who has never killed anyone to balk at slaughtering defenseless people when he reaches the moment of truth.
And it isn't hard to conceptualize a young man who is essentially "good", so that quietly he never completely conformed with his cruel masters' training, and is compelled from the start to reject his role as a mindless, murdering slave.
We aren't even sure if he's the first to ever defy orders or think for himself - I recall there was a hint in a conversation with Phasma that she might have at least been aware of the possibility in other troopers, though FN hadn't shown any signs - but if he is the first, well, that's why he's special and his story is worth telling.
Also, we have no idea what his back story is so it might make even more sense when it is revealed. This is the SW universe, where the struggle between good and evil is central to every story and is sometimes manifested in magical powers, so its characters aren't exactly bound to the mundane inner struggles of your average person.

 

[Harmonica]

It makes sense for a guy who has never killed anyone to balk at slaughtering defenseless people when he reaches the moment of truth. And it isn't hard to conceptualize a young man who is essentially "good", so that quietly he never completely conformed with his cruel masters' training, and is compelled from the start to reject his role as a mindless, murdering slave.
We aren't even sure if he's the first to ever defy orders or think for himself - I recall there was a hint in a conversation with Phasma that she might have at least been aware of the possibility in other troopers, though FN hadn't shown any signs - but if he is the first, well, that's why he's special and his story is worth telling.
Also, we have no idea what his back story is so it might make even more sense when it is revealed. This is the SW universe, where the struggle between good and evil is central to every story and is sometimes manifested in magical powers, so its characters aren't exactly bound to the mundane inner struggles of your average person.

That story might hold water if he didn't originally belong to the First Order but rather to some emotionally healthy family or organization which instilled the seeds of light in him (only to come into First Order's ranks later in life in thirst of adventure or something along those lines, just like when Luke wanted to join the Imperial Academy or Kyle Katarn who was a stormtrooper before defecting to the Republic) thus making it improbable for the baddies to influence his character in such a destructive way since first years of a child's life are decisive in what he'll turn into. It's like expecting ISIS kids to somehow endorse western values with not only never being exposed to them but also being compulsively exposed to their religious polar opposites by their parents and caretakers. Especially if you take into consideration the fact that no evil empire indoctrinates it's subjects like this: "We are the big bad conquerors! We shall slay everyone and laugh maniacally while standing next to their cold, dead bodies!" If those were their methods, then defects would be the rule, not the exception. Every evil empire is very subtle in charming it's members and tries really hard to present it like they are the good guys actually. Palpatine did that like no other.

Once again, had they made his background story a little more coherent and realistic, I would have no trouble with him turning his back on the First Order. This way, it's nothing more than a cliche Disney deus ex machina which was installed to make the main character pure so the kids can identify themselves with him.

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

the difference is, ISIS makes no bones about what they're about, so comparing the two isn't a very good example.

 

[Harmonica]

the difference is, ISIS makes no bones about what they're about, so comparing the two isn't a very good example.

I don't understand the objection. Could you clarify?

 

[sickc0d3r]

That story might hold water if he didn't originally belong to the First Order but rather to some emotionally healthy family or organization which instilled the seeds of light in him (only to come into First Order's ranks later in life in thirst of adventure or something along those lines, just like Luke wanted to join the Imperial Academy or Kyle Katarn who was a stormtrooper before defecting to the Republic) thus making it improbable for the baddies to influence his character in such a destructive way since first years of a child's life are decisive in what he'll turn into. It's like expecting ISIS kids to somehow endorse western values with not only never being exposed to them but also being religiously exposed to their polar opposites by their parents and caretakers. Especially if you take into consideration the fact that no evil empire indoctrinates it's subjects like this: "We are the big bad conquerors! We shall slay everyone and laugh maniacally after standing next to their cold, dead bodies!" If those were their methods, then defects would be the rule, not the exception. Every evil empire is very subtle in charming it's members and tries really hard to present it like they are the good guys actually. Palpatine did that like no other.

Once again, had they made his background story a little more coherent and realistic, I would have no trouble with him turning his back on the First Order. This way, it's nothing more than a cliche Disney deus ex machina which was installed to make the main character pure so the kids can identify themselves with him.

You're making a lot of assumptions here. Who's to say what the training of non-clone troopers entails exactly, especially in the early stages of the program's development? There's no indication that he's been watching beheadings and butt rapes his entire life, so there is no reason to think he would find the mass murder of defenseless people to be normal. I'm sure training is tough and meant to break you mentally and shape you into a desensitized and unquestioning slave, but neither his job as a janitor nor his combat training would necessarily prepare him for the reality of taking someone's life when the rubber meets the road. It is obvious that he befriended other troopers, which indicates some level of humanity must exist within their group.
We can't just dismiss the possibility of inherent morality existing and bubbling to the surface, which is a perfectly suitable concept to embrace in a universe like SW. I feel like this movie tried to flip the script a little and focus on the influence that such inherent goodness can have on a person (e.g. Kylo and Finn), after the prequels focused so heavily on the influence of evil.

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

I don't understand the objection. Could you clarify?

i might have to re-read your post again, need coffee

 

[Harmonica]

You're making a lot of assumptions here. Who's to say what the training of non-clone troopers entails exactly, especially in the early stages of the program's development? There's no indication that he's been watching beheadings and butt rapes his entire life, so there is no reason to think he would find the mass murder of defenseless people to be normal. I'm sure training is tough and meant to break you mentally and shape you into a desensitized and unquestioning slave, but neither his job as a janitor nor his combat training would necessarily prepare him for the reality of taking someone's life when the rubber meets the road.
We can't just dismiss the possibility of inherent morality existing and bubbling to the surface, which is a perfectly suitable concept to embrace in a universe like SW. I feel like this movie tried to flip the script a little and focus on the influence that such inherent goodness can have on a person (e.g. Kylo and Finn), after the prequels focused so heavily on the influence of evil.

Except that we have every reason to assume that First Order's training consisted of some brutal things, solely on the basis of what they were doing throughout the rest of the movie. Him being a janitor is mitigating circumstance in the whole story since janitors don't see a whole lot of action, but are we supposed to believe that he never, not even once heard tales from his comrades about what they were doing on missions? Or was the First Order a moderate imperially minded organization that all of a sudden became radical? You will notice that this was sarcasm and that there's no such thing as a "good" empire and that all one can hope for is that an empire is not too tyrannical, which we have no reason to believe on the account of what we've seen in the rest of the film.

I see what you're aiming at and I wholeheartedly agree that a character's true nature is bound to reveal itself at one point in his life in spite of unfavorable external conditions but if the light side of his personality was literally never nurtured, not even a tiny bit, then that part of his soul isn't gonna show itself much, if at all. Focusing on the hidden goodness instead of hidden evil is a nice contrast but you have to make necessary preparations for it to look and sound plausible.

This way, there's no escaping the impression that his defect is just another manifestation of "instant culture" that rules this generation, where no gratification comes gradually, everything is happening over night and without merit, whether it's love, skill, moral or other epiphanies.

 

[Bob Gray]

Not only that it could have been much more original but it also could have been much more realistic. Fin is a guy who was indoctrinated into hatred and violence from an early age, with no other model in his immediate surroundings to look up to, but he somehow managed to throw away all those dogmas he was brainwashed to believe in the second he had a taste of battle, because he knows right from wrong? Pure comedy. The more realistic scenario would be that he was eager to prove himself on the battlefield, being that young and full of hormones coupled with not having his moral compass fully developed. If they were so keen on making him switch teams, they should have made him a battle hardened veteran who got sick and tired of killing and therefore embarked on a quest in search for change.

The problem with stuff like this is we assume too much. His prologue is completely open. It could have just as easily been that he had never enjoyed it from the start and always has doubts. But the movie can only show so much.

 

[CoolB]

Honestly this whole argument is dumb but I've got to side with @sickc0d3r because he doesn't seem to be writing from a jaded point of view. I get the impression TFA could have been a oscar quality movie and people like @AmbivalenceKing still would have found things to nitpick.

 

[Loiosh]

Except that we have every reason to assume that First Order's training consisted of some brutal things, solely on the basis of what they were doing throughout the rest of the movie. Him being a janitor is mitigating circumstance in the whole story since janitors don't see a whole lot of action, but are we supposed to believe that he never, not even once heard tales from his comrades about what they were doing on missions? Or was the First Order a moderate imperially minded organization that all of a sudden became radical? You will notice that this was sarcasm and that there's no such thing as a "good" empire and that all one can hope for is that an empire is not too tyrannical, which we have no reason to believe on the account of what we've seen in the rest of the film.

I see what you're aiming at and I wholeheartedly agree that a character's true nature is bound to reveal itself at one point in his life in spite of unfavorable external conditions but if the light side of his personality was literally never nurtured, not even a tiny bit, then that part of his soul isn't gonna show itself much, if at all. Focusing on the hidden goodness instead of hidden evil is a nice contrast but you have to make necessary preparations for it to look and sound plausible.

This way, there's no escaping the impression that his defect is just another manifestation of "instant culture" that rules this generation, where no gratification comes gradually, everything is happening over night and without merit, whether it's love, skill, moral or other epiphanies.

Did the American soldiers who torched villages and killed women and children in Vietnam learn that in training? Soldiers are trained first and foremost to follow orders, they aren't trained specifically to be brutal by exposing them to evil. Often the enemy is dehumanized during training to make it easier to follow unsavory orders.

To me it looked like Finn came to his moment of truth and couldn't follow the orders he was given. This isn't a particularly new or original idea but it worked for me. They painted him as someone who refused to do something outside his own moral code but at the same time was primarily (at first) concerned with his own interests.

 

[Harmonica]

Honestly this whole argument is dumb but I've got to side with @sickc0d3r because he doesn't seem to be writing from a jaded point of view. I get the impression TFA could have been a oscar quality movie and people like @AmbivalenceKing still would have found things to nitpick.

Your standards of what comprises a worthy movie are different than mine as is shown when you mention an Oscar as the criteria. Was this movie fun? It was. Was it artistic and touched some deep themes? Not in a million years.

 

[CoolB]

Your standards of what comprises a worthy movie are different than mine as is shown when you mention an Oscar as the criteria. Was this movie fun? It was. Was it artistic and touched some deep themes? Not in a million years.

I think you misunderstood my comment.