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Well that's my point.
They had an awesome start for a bad guy and by the end of the movie, he's a complete pussy.
Dropped the ball, but according to Dizzy, this is all awesome writing.
STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS Official Thread v.6
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Well that's my point.
They had an awesome start for a bad guy and by the end of the movie, he's a complete pussy.
Dropped the ball, but according to Dizzy, this is all awesome writing.
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Then I guess the Jedi are fucked. If a scared little Storm Trooper can do that to Kylo then what can their best guy do? What can 12 of them do? I don't think they are as trained as you say they are. I think that was bad writing to have Fin hang with Kylo. It's also stupid that a non-force user can hang with a force user with any amount of training. If all it takes to fight a Jedi/Sith is a little training and no force sensitivity then what's the point?
The only acceptable explanation is that would not make this 100% stupid is that Fin is force sensitive. If he's not then this shit jumped the shark and is not consistent with the rest of Star Wars.
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wasn't the majority of the jedi in the last prequel taken out by storm troopers? there is precedent.
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Nope I hear ya man, you and I are on the same page.
(I guess we are the 25 percent that didn't like or understand how/why that last act played out the way it did...)
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Okay, I rewrote my whole damn thing. I think some may have become very attached to the idea that Ren was some sort of badass before the movie. He isn't. The trailers lied or misled us about a lot of things, and I personally think that's fantastic. I love them for that.
Kylo Ren is still a mere padawan. Obviously it is a double entendre when he said, "I know what I have to do, but I don't know if I have the strength to do it," and the clear answer given for which it meant was, "Kill my father." This is one of his trials. That's why the Supreme Leader said he wanted Ren brought to him to "complete his training". In a general sense force-user training, just like in the real world, never really stops. That's why the older more embattled Jedi/Sith tend to be the most powerful, and not the ones with the benefit of youth. But what they refer to as "training", which has a definite finishing point, is the completion of five trials (younglings face three trials to become padawans). The completion of these establishes the point at which a Padawan becomes a Jedi Knight. Clearly Ren was ordered to kill his father as part of his training. I assume it is one of his First Order trials or tests. We don't really know anything about their religion, or if they even consider it a religion like the Jedi/Sith.
He is not a Darth Maul. He is not a Count Dooku. He is sure as hell not a Darth Vader. He's just a scared kid. He's also a Skywalker, the most powerful Jedi family in Galactic history, so the fact that he is so capable isn't difficult to understand. However, like Anakin, the grandfather he worships, he is at his worst when he lacks emotional composure, and especially when he is emotionally conflicted. In the first scene when he captures Poe's blast, he is composed. He only slightly loses composure when his identity is referenced, but he is in full control, and channeling his anger and frustration. Think of Anakin against Dooku #3. After he kills his father he is NOT in the moment. Also, Jedi have been known to be killed by snipers, which is regarded as cheap and dishonorable, and isn't as easy for them to prevent. Chewy is a hawkeye with that crossbow blaster.
Per Rey, the crystals in the lightsabers are special pockets of the force, and like wands in Harry Potter have a special connection to the user. For the Jedi, this was a test, in which they would enter the Jedi caves on Ilum. There they would experience visions. The cave would detect their fears and weaknesses, and test their discipline. They could obtain their crystal by overcoming these spiritual obstacles the cave would erect as a gauntlet to the crystal. Some crystals call to more than one Jedi if they are connected as Anakin/Luke's did to Rey. It is understandable she had more influence over it. Maz commented that what Rey was seeking was "in front of" her, not behind her. Kylo reacted to the news of a "girl" with great anxiety. It's like he had seen her in a Force vision or had the advantage of First Order intelligence. All of this leads me to believe Rey is Luke's daughter. It's perfect. Who else could match his supreme natural talent with the Force? No one. It's also highly plausible that Luke would consider having children a duty to the Galaxy and the Force, and not a violation of his order's beliefs.
Per the Force, you're thinking of it wrong. It's more like a decathlon. Sure, training and skill have great influence over certain events, but there are freaks out there who can walk out and be pretty damn formidable without doing anything. Often, the character of their lives influences their aptitude here. Rey seems no different. She spent her whole life a survivor and an explorer, scavenging, in solitude, and having to maintain her control of herself in an insufferably unjust and brutal society. She has been preparing in many way to tap into the Force her whole life, and so much of the Force is about centering oneself and simply believing.
If you think about it, her defeating Kylo in his state is far less outrageous per our typical understanding of training and wisdom strengthening them versus Luke defeating Vader after a few year's training. He is deeply wounded, and having to expend concentration and focus on merely sustaining himself, likely. A normal human would have died to that blast. These aren't little things. But Kylo is clearly not focused. Finn picking up a lightsaber doesn't give him force powers. A force push that sent Rey flying could kill Finn. He could also probably defeat Rey this way. She's not that honed. He isn't composed.
This is what elevates Star Wars, IMO. You then realize it isn't necessarily just about their mastery of a saber. It begs you to piece together things that don't make sense. You begin to wonder about things: like if Anakin couldn't overcome his subconscious desire to save Luke out of father's love for his son. It was also thoroughly established that Anakin was a more powerful Jedi than Obi-Wan, and better with a saber; he didn't lose to him because he was the weaker Jedi, but simply because he was the lesser Jedi. He couldn't steel his character. Obi-Wan was unshakeable.
I also think Abrams did a brilliant job of showing that, relative to the older masters we've seen fight, we were watching two kids with sticks. These were not the masters like Anakin, Obi-Wan Maul, Windu, Qui-Gonn, Dooku, Yoda, Palpatine, or others. These kids would get carved up by those Jedi. They're going to become much more dangerous and powerful as they develop their discipline.
Man, it sort of killed me that when Han said, "We miss you", he didn't also say, "I love you."
Kylo Ren is still a mere padawan. Obviously it is a double entendre when he said, "I know what I have to do, but I don't know if I have the strength to do it," and the clear answer given for which it meant was, "Kill my father." This is one of his trials. That's why the Supreme Leader said he wanted Ren brought to him to "complete his training". In a general sense force-user training, just like in the real world, never really stops. That's why the older more embattled Jedi/Sith tend to be the most powerful, and not the ones with the benefit of youth. But what they refer to as "training", which has a definite finishing point, is the completion of five trials (younglings face three trials to become padawans). The completion of these establishes the point at which a Padawan becomes a Jedi Knight. Clearly Ren was ordered to kill his father as part of his training. I assume it is one of his First Order trials or tests. We don't really know anything about their religion, or if they even consider it a religion like the Jedi/Sith.
He is not a Darth Maul. He is not a Count Dooku. He is sure as hell not a Darth Vader. He's just a scared kid. He's also a Skywalker, the most powerful Jedi family in Galactic history, so the fact that he is so capable isn't difficult to understand. However, like Anakin, the grandfather he worships, he is at his worst when he lacks emotional composure, and especially when he is emotionally conflicted. In the first scene when he captures Poe's blast, he is composed. He only slightly loses composure when his identity is referenced, but he is in full control, and channeling his anger and frustration. Think of Anakin against Dooku #3. After he kills his father he is NOT in the moment. Also, Jedi have been known to be killed by snipers, which is regarded as cheap and dishonorable, and isn't as easy for them to prevent. Chewy is a hawkeye with that crossbow blaster.
Per Rey, the crystals in the lightsabers are special pockets of the force, and like wands in Harry Potter have a special connection to the user. For the Jedi, this was a test, in which they would enter the Jedi caves on Ilum. There they would experience visions. The cave would detect their fears and weaknesses, and test their discipline. They could obtain their crystal by overcoming these spiritual obstacles the cave would erect as a gauntlet to the crystal. Some crystals call to more than one Jedi if they are connected as Anakin/Luke's did to Rey. It is understandable she had more influence over it. Maz commented that what Rey was seeking was "in front of" her, not behind her. Kylo reacted to the news of a "girl" with great anxiety. It's like he had seen her in a Force vision or had the advantage of First Order intelligence. All of this leads me to believe Rey is Luke's daughter. It's perfect. Who else could match his supreme natural talent with the Force? No one. It's also highly plausible that Luke would consider having children a duty to the Galaxy and the Force, and not a violation of his order's beliefs.
Per the Force, you're thinking of it wrong. It's more like a decathlon. Sure, training and skill have great influence over certain events, but there are freaks out there who can walk out and be pretty damn formidable without doing anything. Often, the character of their lives influences their aptitude here. Rey seems no different. She spent her whole life a survivor and an explorer, scavenging, in solitude, and having to maintain her control of herself in an insufferably unjust and brutal society. She has been preparing in many way to tap into the Force her whole life, and so much of the Force is about centering oneself and simply believing.
If you think about it, her defeating Kylo in his state is far less outrageous per our typical understanding of training and wisdom strengthening them versus Luke defeating Vader after a few year's training. He is deeply wounded, and having to expend concentration and focus on merely sustaining himself, likely. A normal human would have died to that blast. These aren't little things. But Kylo is clearly not focused. Finn picking up a lightsaber doesn't give him force powers. A force push that sent Rey flying could kill Finn. He could also probably defeat Rey this way. She's not that honed. He isn't composed.
This is what elevates Star Wars, IMO. You then realize it isn't necessarily just about their mastery of a saber. It begs you to piece together things that don't make sense. You begin to wonder about things: like if Anakin couldn't overcome his subconscious desire to save Luke out of father's love for his son. It was also thoroughly established that Anakin was a more powerful Jedi than Obi-Wan, and better with a saber; he didn't lose to him because he was the weaker Jedi, but simply because he was the lesser Jedi. He couldn't steel his character. Obi-Wan was unshakeable.
I also think Abrams did a brilliant job of showing that, relative to the older masters we've seen fight, we were watching two kids with sticks. These were not the masters like Anakin, Obi-Wan Maul, Windu, Qui-Gonn, Dooku, Yoda, Palpatine, or others. These kids would get carved up by those Jedi. They're going to become much more dangerous and powerful as they develop their discipline.
Man, it sort of killed me that when Han said, "We miss you", he didn't also say, "I love you."
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Lol, giving the bad guy some actual character development was a great decision on their part.
You didn't like it. You wanted a generic Vader clone. Thankfully that's not what we got. I'd bet anything that you think Darth Maul was a great villain.
Now we have a very intriguing character that will be further explored in the sequels. Ren's arc was arguably the best part of this movie and I can't wait to see where they take him in the future.
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I'm with Dizzy on this. This time, the scared kid is actually interesting...because he's no longer really just a kid. And he has a foil.
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I see why people thought Kylo Ren turned out to be a can at the end of the movie but I think these things are legitimate enough to explain why it happened:
1. He got blasted
2. I think he is still unsure of whether he wants to be on the dark side
3. His immaturity and lack of experience (assumption) makes him sloppy and unfocused especially considering the above things
While they are kind of cop outs to make Rey/Fin look better, I don't think it's too much of a travesty. At first I was thinking Kylo Ren was a badass mofo but throughout the movie his temper tantrums and conversations he had revealed that he's really not on that level yet
1. He got blasted
2. I think he is still unsure of whether he wants to be on the dark side
3. His immaturity and lack of experience (assumption) makes him sloppy and unfocused especially considering the above things
While they are kind of cop outs to make Rey/Fin look better, I don't think it's too much of a travesty. At first I was thinking Kylo Ren was a badass mofo but throughout the movie his temper tantrums and conversations he had revealed that he's really not on that level yet
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Finn is not just a scrub stormtrooper. If he was, he'd still be a stormtrooper, or a dead stormtrooper.
He broke free of the brainwashing and is ruled by his emotions. Look how quickly he attaches to people like Poe and then Rey, how his fear made him want to run, but loyalty and love made him want to fight. He's reckless and willing to attempt dangerous things like manning a ship's blaster even if he has no idea whether or not he can pull them off. Multiple times he pretended to know something he didn't really know, or be someone he really wasn't.
He broke free of the brainwashing and is ruled by his emotions. Look how quickly he attaches to people like Poe and then Rey, how his fear made him want to run, but loyalty and love made him want to fight. He's reckless and willing to attempt dangerous things like manning a ship's blaster even if he has no idea whether or not he can pull them off. Multiple times he pretended to know something he didn't really know, or be someone he really wasn't.
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He's a padawan. People aren't getting that. He isn't a Sith Lord like Vader. He's a freaking padawan.
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Why is his level of power so far below Vaders? Everything he did was stronger than anything Vader did. Vader blocked a few laser shots and choked a dude with his mind. If we're just going by what we've seen displayed, Rens level of power looks stronger than Vaders. Stopping lasers in mid air, pulling memories out of people brains, etc.
Effectively, this is like as if in Episode IV Vader kills Obi Wan and then Luke runs in, picks up Obis light saber and thrashes Vader. Yeah, Ren was injured but Vader has one arm, no legs and can't breathe.
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Yea when they were ambushed by people they trusted, they had blasters, had numbers, and not in hand to hand combat one on one. There's no precedent for a Storm Trooper being able to do that to a Jedi/Sith, especially while he has his lightsaber.
Plus the prequels were stupid as hell.
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I get it.
But few things still bother me.
- If Kylo isn't going to be the series main antagonist, then we need yet another introduction to another villian (whom is most likely going to be cgi...yay) I'd rather they just kept this shit simple, like the first movie did.
- visually seeing Rae beat the fuck out of Kylo lessens the impact visually of seeing it again, regardless of powers built up or not. (how many times does the headline "Superman's dead" have an impact?) You save these visual feasts for your special moments. In that sense if they were like you said kids with sticks, I'd have much preferred them fighting to a draw...having some outside force prevent them from fighting further so we as an audience see neither win or neither lose.
- the movie built up kylo's power in the first act, and then by the end of the movie he's a little kid with a stick? that sucks.
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like madmick pointed out above, he wasn't a sith, or even a jedi. he was a padawan. also, declaring that the prequels are stupid has no relevance to the conversation as they canon.
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Special effects have done wonders for the force.
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Darth Vader had years of experience and fully embraced the dark side (or more so than Kylo Ren). Kylo Ren looks like he's the same age as Anakin from Episode 3. He's not nearly as experienced as Vader
Kylo is going to get trained by the emperor and then whoop some ass in Episode 8.
I'm guessing he will kill Luke and/or Fin/Rae
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