Star Wars Megathread

[Myrddin Wild]

Were talking about a key dramatic element within a film in terms of Luke considering murdering Ben

Wrong!
He was triggered. What he "considered" is that he went to confront Ben.

Do you honestly feel that he "considered" killing Ben?
When he did, he realized what was happening, he stopped.

to say that you need to read some kind of supporting novel to understand that is something you would find almost zero support for among any film goer beyond IMHO those who simply want to prop up this franchise by any means they can.

Don't look now, but I clearly showed you that it's all in the movie.
I even numbered them & dictated exactly what he said.

If I respond to those posts peice by peice its going to be simply massive and end up repeating myself alot.

so 15 minutes after I dropped all those carefully written out responses... TO YOUR LONG ASS POST!!! are you saying you've taken them all in & this is all you have to say?

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Wrong!
He was triggered. What he "considered" is that he went to confront Ben.

Do you honestly feel that he "considered" killing Ben?
When he did, he realized what was happening, he stopped.

The fact he lit his saber I think suggests that yes he did consider it.

Don't look now, but I clearly showed you that it's all in the movie.
I even numbered them & dictated exactly what he said.

Luke makes quick reference to it in a handful of lines, otherwise very little time is spent on building it up.

so 15 minutes after I dropped all those carefully written out responses... are you saying you've taken them all in & this is all you have to say?

It seems the vast majority of those posts is talking about the tie in novels, if I responded to them peice by peice I'd just be saying the same thing over and over, that I don't accept a tie in novel can correct the flaws of a film, it can stand on its own of course and you could argue its superior but the idea you should need to read a novel to enjoy a film is a pretty minority view.

I don't think I'm picking out some minor element of your arguement and ignoring the rest, I'm focusing on the biggest element of those posts.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

The fact he lit his saber I think suggests that yes he did consider it.

It was an impulse. he says so very clearly in the movie.

Luke makes quick reference to it in a handful of lines, otherwise very little time is spent on building it up.

You didn't even read my carefully written out response to YOUR LONG ASS POST did you?
You are disrespecting those scenes where he says those things by not acknowledging them.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

It seems the vast majority of those posts is talking about the tie in novels, if I responded to them peice by peice I'd just be saying the same thing over and over, that I don't accept a tie in novel can correct the flaws of a film, it can stand on its own of course and you could argue its superior but the idea you should need to read a novel to enjoy a film is a pretty minority view.

You didn't even read it did you?

I didn't make that point one single time. In fact, my point is the exact opposite, that everything you need is in the movie. novels always have more information & detail than the movie

 

[Deleted member 110072]

You didn't even read it did you?

I didn't make that point one single time.

Yes I did and...

"I don't distinguish between Movies & any other type of Canon. They all exist in the same universe & are all equally valid in my mind. The story that happens in a canon novel, comic book, game, or cartoon happened just like the story in the movie happened. Everything I take in is added in my mind to this wonderful & broad story. It actually seems strange for me to separate a movie from the whole in order to make points to someone like yourself who only wants to talk in terms of the movie & nothing more."

Making exactly the claim I was responding to and if I disagree with that so much of what follows seems irrelvant.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

Yes I did and...

"I don't distinguish between Movies & any other type of Canon. They all exist in the same universe & are all equally valid in my mind. The story that happens in a canon novel, comic book, game, or cartoon happened just like the story in the movie happened. Everything I take in is added in my mind to this wonderful & broad story. It actually seems strange for me to separate a movie from the whole in order to make points to someone like yourself who only wants to talk in terms of the movie & nothing more."

Did you recognize the part at the very start of our convos when I first quoted you... I think it was my second quote to you... where I said that since you want to just discuss only what's in the movie... that I will only refer to things in the movie while hashing this out with you?

Rhetorical. That's what happened.

there's a whole lot of stuff I said in that carefully written post replying to YOUR LONG ASS POST. & now you seem to be saying that my post is too long for you to carefully take in & reply to.

You said "the vast majority of those posts are talking about the tie in novels." FFS man, that's just one small segment of all that stuff I said.

you OBVIOUSLY didn't even read it. After posting walls of text to me & others, you are now refusing to read mine to you. Teh fook?

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Did you recognize the part at the very start of our convos when I first quoted you... I think it was my second quote to you... where I said that since you want to just discuss only what's in the movie... that I will only refer to things in the movie while hashing this out with you?

Rhetorical. That's what happened.

there's a whole lot of stuff I said in that carefully written post replying to YOUR LONG ASS POST. & now you seem to be saying that my post is too long for you to carefully take in & reply to.

You said "the vast majority of those posts are talking about the tie in novels." FFS man, that's just one small part of all that stuff I said.

you OBVIOUSLY didn't even read it. After posting walls of text to me & others, you are now refusing to read mine to you. Teh fook?

We also have....

"Luckily for you we have this wonderful world of Canon for folks like yourself that want more detail. All you gotta do is embrace it. It's right there bud. Just take off the movie critic hat & embrace it."

....again going back to the same point and telling me I need to read the novel to understand the film.

So much of the rest of what you post is basically expanding on what you see as the importance of Luke's vision but I think theres a gulf between this and its effectiveness on screen, making quick reference to dramatic elements does not automatically give them importance. Hamill does his best with what he's given but again its ultimately just a handful of lines as a surprise reveal for the central crux of his story in the film.

Beyond that as well I think by basic comparison with ROTJ still holds, we see that to get a "rise" out of Luke in that film the provocation is extreme(and very real) and the action he takes vastly more justified. Attacking Vader in that situation and seriously considering murdering an innocent child in his sleep are to me not anything like a close comparison.

I really have no ax to grind with Starwars, my natural inclination is to try and enjoy anything in the franchise which does hold massive good will with me still. Indeed the same is true for cinema generally(or art overall), I consider any debate on forums like this of vastly less importance than getting enjoyment from it and I won't shift my opinions to suit the former.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

We also have....

"Luckily for you we have this wonderful world of Canon for folks like yourself that want more detail. All you gotta do is embrace it. It's right there bud. Just take off the movie critic hat & embrace it."

....again going back to the same point and telling me I need to read the novel to understand the film.

So much of the rest of what you post is basically expanding on what you see as the importance of Luke's vision but I think theres a gulf between this and its effectiveness on screen, making quick reference to dramatic elements does not automatically give them importance. Hamill does his best with what he's given but again its ultimately just a handful of lines as a surprise reveal for the central crux of his story in the film.

Beyond that as well I think by basic comparison with ROTJ still holds, we see that to get a "rise" out of Luke in that film the provocation is extreme(and very real) and the action he takes vastly more justified. Attacking Vader in that situation and seriously considering murdering an innocent child in his sleep are to me not anything like a close comparison.

I really have no ax to grind with Starwars, my natural inclination is to try and enjoy anything in the franchise which does hold massive good will with me still. Indeed the same is true for cinema generally(or art overall), I consider any debate on forums like this of vastly less importance than getting enjoyment from it and I won't shift my opinions to suit the former.

More cherry picking from the top part of my post eh?

The trigger is: Fuck with Leia... Luke snaps. All that bullshit Sid & Vader did to goad him along had little effect, Vader said he was going to turn Leia & luke snapped. That's the trigger.

you're obviously cherry picking a few things from the top of my post & you VERY OBVIOUSLY have not read my entire post. So fuck you for writing walls of text to myself & others & not being willing to read my whole post. You're a hypocrite wasting everyone's time with your bullshit & then being unwilling to read my longer posts I carefully wrote to you.

If you did read it then you're strategically avoiding my points while cherry picking things to suit your agenda

You've been twisting everything I've said & you proved yourself to be a liar telling me you read my post after 15 fucking minutes after I posted it so fuck your lying ass. I wouldn't expect to get a decent convo out of you even if you had actually read my post.

 

[Bob Gray]

The new Vader comic series is crushing it atm. I'm at the edge of my fooking seat waiting for ep. 10 to drop.

It's not a spoiler to say what the series is about... since that happens right away, but it's 9 episodes now into how Vader reacted to finding out Padme had a kid. Lets just say that someone got some spainin' to do & you can really feel that there's no cap on the amount of blood he's willing to spill in his wake to find those answers.

It took many interesting twists along the way, but especially going into the yet to be released ep. 10. I know @EvilDDS is chopping at teh bit to see where this goez.

Did you read Kieran Gillens run on Vader? It was the first volume. Some of the best Vader stuff I've ever seen. I wonder how this new one compares.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

Did you read Kieran Gillens run on Vader? It was the first volume. Some of the best Vader stuff I've ever seen. I wonder how this new one compares.

Oh fuck yeah... you really really get a feel for Vader & what a no nonsense bad ass he is. Also the Sith in general. Sid's like "yeah, I sent them to kill you, but don't hold that against me... if you hadn't survived then you weren't worthy of being my apprentice." lol... or something like that. Actually I think I've got a cut out from one of the comics. Hold on.

What a fooking job. Vader's just like that though. He givez zero fucks. When everyone else is saying retreat... he's saying why. lol...

OOH... hold on I got another one.

Vader's surrounded by a whole fooking army & the big picture for him looks so bleak. They holler, "We have you surrounded... surrender now." What does fooking Vader say?

I think it's some of the best SW comics as a whole. It was nice being able to just focus on Vader.

Loved the co-star of the series Dr. Aphra too.

The main Star Wars series that pre-dated that Vader series happens at the exact same timeline, & you can see where there's some gaps in the story of both series... where you wonder why they left such a big gap open in the story, & then when you read the other it's like "oh, yeah... they just told that story over there." So the 2 series' work together & criss cross their paths. It's pretty fascinating to experience.

I'd be curious to know if someone worked out an "ideal timeline" between the 2, & to review them in that order. I don't know if I'm that invested to work out a timeline myself, but if one existed already, I'd probably fooking take the dive & re-read it all.
@EvilDDS @One MMA Fan do you cats know if such a timeline exists for these 2 comic series?

 

[One MMA Fan]

@EvilDDS @One MMA Fan do you cats know if such a timeline exists for these 2 comic series?

Nope, I've only read the first Vader comic. And a little from the main Star Wars and Dr. Aphra and I too like her, wouldn't mind a Disney+ show around her.

 

[EvilDDS]

Oh fuck yeah... you really really get a feel for Vader & what a no nonsense bad ass he is. Also the Sith in general. Sid's like "yeah, I sent them to kill you, but don't hold that against me... if you hadn't survived then you weren't worthy of being my apprentice." lol... or something like that. Actually I think I've got a cut out from one of the comics. Hold on.

What a fooking job. Vader's just like that though. He givez zero fucks. When everyone else is saying retreat... he's saying why. lol... OOH... hold on I got another one.

Vader's surrounded by a whole fooking army & the big picture looks so bleak. They holler, "We have you surrounded... surrender now." What does fooking Vader say?

I think it's some of the best SW comics as a whole. It was nice being able to just focus on Vader.

Loved the co-star of the series Dr. Aphra too.

The main Star Wars series that pre-dated that Vader series happens at the exact same timeline, & you can see where there's some gaps in the story of both series... where you wonder why they left such a big gap open in the story, & then when you read the other it's like "oh, yeah... they just told that story over there." So the 2 series' work together & criss cross their paths. It's pretty fascinating to experience.

I'd be curious to know if someone worked out an "ideal timeline" between the 2, & to review them in that order. I don't know if I'm that invested to work out a timeline myself, but if one existed already, I'd probably fooking take the dive & re-read it all.
@EvilDDS @One MMA Fan do you cats know if such a timeline exists for these 2 comic series?

The Kieron Gillen Vader run is set just after A New Hope, fun series

The Charles Soule Vader run was set after Revenge of the Sith. Also a cool series

While this new run that is currently going is set between TESB and ROTJ

 

[EvilDDS]

Wookiepedia links for those runs

Gillen
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_Darth_Vader_(Marvel)

Soule

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_Darth_Vader:_Dark_Lord_of_the_Sith

Pak
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/St...ar Wars: Darth Vader is,VI Return of the Jedi.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

The Kieron Gillen Vader run is set just after A New Hope, fun series

The Charles Soule Vader run was set after Revenge of the Sith. Also a cool series

While this new run that is currently going is set between TESB and ROTJ

It's profound the way the 1st main SW's series crisscrosses with the 1st Vader series several times in both of their runs. The "Vader Down" issues even converges both series' on that epic story with a little duplicate overlap actually. (same exact pages for a bit)

Have you heard of anyone having a list of a "time line order" between the 2 series that might put the whole journey between the 2 in chronological order?

 

[Crawler89]

Let me guess... Mike Zeroh

i got no idea who that even is.

dont come at me bro, I love star wars just as much as you, just not as insane about defending it.

this is how your coming off in this thread, its not worth getting into your monsterous posts and debates with people

 

[Myrddin Wild]

i got no idea who that even is.

dont come at me bro, I love star wars just as much as you, just not as insane about defending it.

this is how your coming off in this thread, its not worth getting into your monsterous posts and debates with people

I don't defend SW's... I just speak my mind.

lol... that post was said in jest because Mike Zeroh is like youtube's biggest news troll & the majority of the time someone comes in here with some wacky news story it's some bullshit Mike Zeroh made up.

I got appreciation for yah bro... & I'm not hard to get along with AT ALL for people who are respectful & don't jerk me around. I give people back what they give to me. So be cool with me & don't try to bullshit me... & you'll get cool back. Simple yeah? We don't even have to agree. Haters are welcome to chat with me as well... but as soon as they start pulling that elitist shit, or jerking me around & purposefully twisting my words, then we're going to have a problem. Still pretty simple yeah?

I'm not complicated at all. Just be real.

Back in the early post TLJ dayz the haters would dogpile anyone who said anything positive about SW's. I actually had someone quote me saying they weren't even going to post their approval in here due to the toxicity of the thread until they saw me & a handful of others clear the space.

I'd rather not have problems, I'd rather just have cool discussions about SW's. That's real. That's what this thread is for. It's not some hater circle jerk... & it's not some love fest for the lovers. We can all get along, but this bullying & ravenous behavior has no place in here.

We can get there.. but it's going to take all of us.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

Did you read Kieran Gillens run on Vader? It was the first volume. Some of the best Vader stuff I've ever seen. I wonder how this new one compares.

Forgot to field your question at the end.

The new series is still in the making but so far I'm loving it. It's different art & pacing, but I got so immersed into the story I didn't notice the difference. Some unexpected twists... & I'm absolutely at the edge of my seat waiting for fooking ep 10 to drop.

Spoiler

 

[Batjester]

It would be fatal to Disney to intermingle Marvel and Star Wars at this juncture. Marvel should just reboot the Space Knights and start from there.

Hasbro owns the Rom licence.

 

[FyrFytr998]

Hasbro owns the Rom licence.

Lol, Hasbro just shown how much they think of the new ST!!

Lucasfilm 50th Anniversary figures were released and there were ZERO sequel figures in the mix from Hasbro. Nice. I mean come on. They even gave Jar Jar and the Battledroids some love.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

More cherry picking from the top part of my post eh?

The trigger is: Fuck with Leia... Luke snaps. All that bullshit Sid & Vader did to goad him along had little effect, Vader said he was going to turn Leia & luke snapped. That's the trigger.

you're obviously cherry picking a few things from the top of my post & you VERY OBVIOUSLY have not read my entire post. So fuck you for writing walls of text to myself & others & not being willing to read my whole post. You're a hypocrite wasting everyone's time with your bullshit & then being unwilling to read my longer posts I carefully wrote to you.

If you did read it then you're strategically avoiding my points while cherry picking things to suit your agenda

You've been twisting everything I've said & you proved yourself to be a liar telling me you read my post after 15 fucking minutes after I posted it so fuck your lying ass. I wouldn't expect to get a decent convo out of you even if you had actually read my post.

No I did read that entire post, not the second one but again as I said your basically making a case built on that same argument again and again and a response to it would be by repeating that again and again. Thats very different to you looking to focus from a single semantic argument from one of my posts, keeping up with the semantic argument even when clarified and ignoring everything else. Its the same with Luke's motivation, as I'd said before that post its not the ideas your raising I'm always disagreeing with but how effectively they are gotten across on screen.

There does seem to be a pattern in extreme defense of the prequels and the sequels that ultimately people end up belittling the originals. In ROTJ I think you clearly see that the pressure on Luke builds across the scenes with Vader and the Emperor, on Endor and then in the throne room you see Luke's ability to keep his anger and fear in check is repeatedly tested, Hamil gets a good 20 mins here to sell this. At the point he finally breaks you have him hiding under the platform in the dark clearly very disturbed before Leia is mentioned, if we'd simply gone from the cool Luke on Endor to "noooo!" screaming angry Luke when Leia is mentioned it wouldnt have been nearly as believeble. Those scene for me are actually the single greatest thing(even if ROTJ as a whole maybe is quite as good as ANH and ESB) associated with Starwars in how effectively they carry out this story.

You can put something down in words but that doesnt mean its been sold effectively on screen, Luke can say "this tested me more than even the confrontation on the death star" but that doesnt mean its been sold effectively as such. I think the problem the film really has is that like Force Awakens is dramatically confused as to its intension, it introduces new lead characters but struggles to make these characters dramatically interesting and instead has a tendency to return to the original characters as the dramatic center of the films whilst not giving them enough focus to do anything but replay stories from the originals which needs them to regress in terms of wisdom and morals, so Han needs to become ANH Han again.

The whole situation with Luke considering killing Ben in his sleep is a product of that for me, its basically reducing the plot to something which can be covered in a very short flashback but in doing this it diminishes its ability to build Luke's motivation and creates an incredably morally dubious situation out of character for him. To have a situation with a failure more in character with the Luke we see at the end of ROTJ would have needed more screen time and effort plus more respect for the character.

I do think Johnson was rather dropped in it in this reguard by Abrams who basically used Luke as a mcguffin AND took the big dramatic reveal of his return for his own film(what I suspect the light saber throw was about, didn't personally have an issue with that) whilst leaving the character and motivation a mystery. The whole resistance plot really is just a big load of nothing at that point, unlike ESB were Han and Leia are well built characters I don't think Finn and Poe carry much interest at all. Again I think hiring Abrams and TFA is really the core of were the ST went wrong, as with Trek it just took time for the issues to become a bit more obvious and pure nostalgia to wear off.

Again there was a fundamental choice at the start for me to either puit effort into a respectful relaucnhing of SW or to go with a cheap cash in and Disney chose the latter with Abrams, this probably ranks as the single worst choice made in Hollywood over the last 20+ years for me if your talking about economics and negative viewer reaction. The DC EU is arguably a bigger train wreck overall but I'm not sure you can put that down to a single decision as much.