Standing arm-locks in Judo

[Doughbelly]

yeah. feasible with enough strength and practice? sure. practical? not even.

i've used what i've learned in Hapkido to restrain unruly drunkards, but i sure as shit wasn't trying to wrist lock them...

Dr. Jong Kyun Choi from Sun Moon was visiting our club this summer, and has come over a few times before. He uses his bottom three fingers for his grip, with the pointer extended. Absolutely unreal sensation.

Yeah, that's what I mean by ki finger. The lopsided Vs used in a lot of hapkido logos are symbolic of the pointer finger extended, with the thumb forming a loose V or L. The thumb is never supposed to fully lock out, though.

It's fundamentally the same as your judo grip, only with the base of your thumb meant to act as the fulcrum of your lever with the fingers pulling or vice versa, depending on which side you're coming from.

It works for the same reason a good judo grip is a good judo grip. Flexible while retaining almost all the strength of a fist. From a fist, just by extending the pointer, you gain a much wider range of motion.

I'm probably stating things you already know.

Not quite sure I understand what you are talking about here. What do you mean by "immobilise the elbow directly"?

I'm not familiar with HKD or Akido, but I have learnt several standing joint locks in my ju-jutsu training that target the wrist and are effective. They are almost exclusively executed with uke's arm fully extended or bent 90 degrees at the elbow, though. Not sure if this is what you mean by having the elbow immobilised.

By directly immobilizing, I mean a part of the body, yours or his, should be in direct contact with the elbow. The chain of control from wrist the by locking out the elbow goes wrist -> elbow -> shoulder -> body. I think that's too many points of failure. I'd rather be up a step or two on that chain.

 

[Doughbelly]

yeah. feasible with enough strength and practice? sure. practical? not even.

i've used what i've learned in Hapkido to restrain unruly drunkards, but i sure as shit wasn't trying to wrist lock them....

Honestly, your ability to restrain people from standing with joint locks is better than mine. If you have confidence, then that's 90% of the game. I learned them but never felt confident with them so I never really practiced with the intent to use them in real life. This means I don't go to them in cases where I might have had success.

End of the day, that means your ability to actually do them is better than mine.

 

[Doughbelly]

Please, tell me if I'm not being descriptive enough or if I'm overstating the obvious. I'm not very good at getting that right online.

 

[Blue Streak]

By directly immobilizing, I mean a part of the body, yours or his, should be in direct contact with the elbow. The chain of control from wrist the by locking out the elbow goes wrist -> elbow -> shoulder -> body. I think that's too many points of failure. I'd rather be up a step or two on that chain.

Right, gotchya. Most of the standing joint locks I know which target the wrist do have the direct immobilisation of the elbow you talk about, except for a couple.

Of the exceptions, one has uke's arm fully extended with his wrist turned so that the blade of his hand is facing the roof, tori then torques uke's wrist towards uke to force him to the ground. Of course, you need to have effective kuzushi for this to work, so that uke can't counter-attack or bend their arm to resist the lock.

The other is a throw based off of lock the wrist. Tori grabs uke's wrist, steps back to stretch uke's arm out and then torques uke's wrist to the outside. Uke either gets his wrist broken or gets thrown in order to avoid having his wrist broken (if done fast enough this is not possible, though).

IME, both of these moves which lack direct immobilisation of the elbow can be effective. However, both need to be applied with some speed to be effective, and can't really be used to control an opponent standing.

 

[RJ Green]

Blue Streak - pretty much. You can throw someone while grabbing their hand, but a lot of that has to do with the right speed, direction, breaking balance, their reaction, etc.

What I really enjoy from Hapkido is the ability to control someone without hurting them, or vice-versa. The redirection/circling has so many applications in both striking and grappling. Hapkido taught me how to move better, refined how I react to direct attacks whether it's Judo or Muay Thai.

I also didn't mean to imply that wrist locks/holds were what I've used to restrain people. For my money, getting behind someone and pushing their hips out from under them, so that their shoulderblades are resting on your chest, is one of the safest, gentlest ways to control someone. Sure, I could wreck their shit with Judo throws, put them out with an RNC, snap their arm, but that completely misses the point. I don't have to hurt people to get them to move where I want, or immobilize them. I don't have to rough someone up to get them to calm down. I can completely control a shitty situation using fundamentals I practice every day.

I wish HKD principles would catch on with cops and bouncers. One of the HKD schools in Des Moines is lead by a Sgt. with the State Patrol, and I really like that. I've seen my fair share of excessive force from University Police on unruly tailgaters, and too many dickbag bouncers using shit like full nelsons. Yeah, drunk people act like dickbags, and it's a tough line of work, but in my experience, the more force used to stifle a situation, the more the situation escalates.

Whenever I'm in a situation that necessitates action, I'm always cognizant of the fact that if I hurt someone, I'm liable for damages. Real life isn't a match, or the cage. I mean, I'm a big, knowledgeable guy, it's my duty to do something, but I didn't learn Hapkido to beat people up. I learned, and continue to learn, because I don't have to.

 

[Doughbelly]

Right, gotchya. Most of the standing joint locks I know which target the wrist do have the direct immobilisation of the elbow you talk about, except for a couple.

...

IME, both of these moves which lack direct immobilisation of the elbow can be effective. However, both need to be applied with some speed to be effective, and can't really be used to control an opponent standing.

What it comes down to for me is that for control techniques, I would rather be using the strength and leverage of my arms to control. I want his arms hooked and tucked into the crook of my elbow or against the blades of my arm. I don't want my hand strength and leverage to be a part of that equation.

For me, the wrist lock stuff is a 0-60 thing.

I wish HKD principles would catch on with cops and bouncers. One of the HKD schools in Des Moines is lead by a Sgt. with the State Patrol, and I really like that. I've seen my fair share of excessive force from University Police on unruly tailgaters, and too many dickbag bouncers using shit like full nelsons. Yeah, drunk people act like dickbags, and it's a tough line of work, but in my experience, the more force used to stifle a situation, the more the situation escalates.

Japanese Police aikido dojos are famous and the real deal. They practice and make it work.

Korean National Police won't even look at you unless you've got a hapkido 1st dan.

We did a lot LE/police stuff at my home hapkido dojang in Korea, which was more of a monastery of a religion devoted to the ROK Marine Corps and Police (specifically bodyguarding). I used to pretty much live there, but there were guys coming out of ROKMC national service who actually did live there for months at a time. I could tell a lot a stories about that school. We used to have yudanja camps in the winter where we ran around the snow with our shirts off and stuff like that. (Koreans just love running around in the snow with their shirts off.) During the summers, we'd go out to the beach, stand in chest deep water and splash around doing sword forms. There's a lot of normal hapkido schools, but hapkido in Korea also tends to attract a lot of guys who were born about 400 years too late but are still determined to give that lifestyle a good go.