Standing arm-locks in Judo

[Blue Streak]

The below video was posted in another thread a couple of months ago and shows a guy successfully applying a standing armlock at a high level of Judo competition. So clearly it can be done.

SOL (Ne waza) - TMENOV x

 

[RJ Green]

Reverse wakigatame? Damn.

Notice though, he doesn't wrench until the dude's knees hit the ground. I think you'd get called for it otherwise?

 

[ArTofF16hT1ng]

I have my own opinions regarding standing HKD armlocks and they're none too flattering. If there's anything that remained with me of value, it was the various methods of kick catching.

The demonstration techniques have diluted the efficacy of Hapkido for the sake of aesthetics. Take this video for example.


One, I'd never attempt to kick a gun out of someone's hand, that's simply retarded and it would take an incredible amount of speed. The time it takes to kick a gun out of someone's hand is significantly greater than the time it takes someone to pull a trigger.

Second, notice how the guns just go flying out of the assailant's hands at the slightest touch, this does not reflect reality.

Third, the demo kicks are way too extravagant. I believe in aerial kicks for dexterity but not for economy in fighting.

The spinning heel kick demo at 44 secs. was actually practical to show the power of the move. Here's a video of it being done in MMA.



The spinning knife technique portion was utter BS, it was all for show.

From 1:56-2:29 the fight demo is more realistic. The gentleman uses his kicks to keep his opponents at bay and his movements are compact and economical.

The rest of the video is basically a Jason Bourne film.

I much prefer this Krav Maga demo. Notice how he keeps his movements tight and compact. He also sets up his joint locks with a strike which I think increases the likelihood of pulling it off tremendously.

I haven't done or even thought about Hapkido in almost ten years, same as TKD. I haven't been involved in the KMA community for a long time. I hold higher ranks in TKD and HKD than I do in Judo, but I think of myself as Judo guy.

Same for me, I haven't done HKD in about 10 years. I might do TKD for the dexterity in my legs. What are your respective ranks and how old are you?

No, Judo 2nd dan. I wanted to go for my 3rd, but it became a big hassle. I paid money to USJI I think twice to get my reg numbers to compete as a Shodan, but then things got screwed up because the US instructor and association I wanted to promote through was USJA or USJF. I tried twice, first time in the late 90s and second time about five years ago before I gave up.

I had the same problem with the USJA. I submitted paper work for Ni-Kyu (2nd Brown) and the USJA cashed my check but never delivered my certificate. They claimed it was because my Instructor hadn't paid for his background check, which is BS because that doesn't nullify his promoting powers nor should they have cashed my check if they hadn't planned on sending my certificate. Basically, they froze my promotion as a way to strong arm more money out of my Sensei. USJA can kiss it for all I'm concerned, what a farce of an organization.

 

[Blue Streak]

Reverse wakigatame? Damn.

Yeah, it is a nice move.

Notice though, he doesn't wrench until the dude's knees hit the ground. I think you'd get called for it otherwise?

I did notice this, and I think you are right. He still entered from the standing position though, which is what I was trying to demonstrate as being possible even in high level competition.

 

[Blue Streak]

I much prefer this Krav Maga demo. Notice how he keeps his movements tight and compact. He also sets up his joint locks with a strike which I think increases the likelihood of pulling it off tremendously.

Nice video. I really liked how smooth and flowing the techniques were.

Setting up a joint lock with strikes is generally a good idea. Such techniques only really work if they come as a surprise. So your opponent has to either not realise he is fighting, or be concentrating on striking and hence not thinking about grappling. Both of these situations are displayed in the video.

However, in the video tori often executed several strikes after gaining control of uke's limb. To me, such strikes are unnecessary, done for the purpose of showing off, and unrealistic in that uke doesn't do anything with the trapped limb while tori delivers several strikes. IMO, if you are going to use a standing joint lock, you need to execute it as soon as you gain control of the target limb so that your opponent doesn't have time to react effectively.

 

[calculusftw]

Can somebody tell me what happened to the big asian guy in the OP's judo video?

 

[ArTofF16hT1ng]

Nice video. I really liked how smooth and flowing the techniques were.

Setting up a joint lock with strikes is generally a good idea. Such techniques only really work if they come as a surprise. So your opponent has to either not realize he is fighting, or be concentrating on striking and hence not thinking about grappling. Both of these situations are displayed in the video.

I agree.

, in the video tori often executed several strikes after gaining control of uke's limb. To me, such strikes are unnecessary, done for the purpose of showing off, and unrealistic in that uke doesn't do anything with the trapped limb while tori delivers several strikes. IMO, if you are going to use a standing joint lock, you need to execute it as soon as you gain control of the target limb so that your opponent doesn't have time to react effectively.

I think 2 or 3 strikes before finishing a standing joint lock is within reason.

 

[ArTofF16hT1ng]

Can somebody tell me what happened to the big asian guy in the OP's judo video?

He was reaching out with his left arm and his opponent capitalized on the extended limb and broke the arm by dropping his weight on it.

I believe it's the only Silver Medal Saito received in a World level tournament.

Hitoshi Saito - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Doughbelly]

The demonstration techniques have diluted the efficacy of Hapkido for the sake of aesthetics. Take this video for example.

I won't be able to watch any videos until tomorrow. My laptop just conked out and I loaned my spare out last week.

Same for me, I haven't done HKD in about 10 years. I might do TKD for the dexterity in my legs. What are your respective ranks and how old are you?

4th HKD, 3rd TKD, 2nd judo.

I had the same problem with the USJA. I submitted paper work for Ni-Kyu (2nd Brown) and the USJA cashed my check but never delivered my certificate. They claimed it was because my Instructor hadn't paid for his background check, which is BS because that doesn't nullify his promoting powers nor should they have cashed my check if they hadn't planned on sending my certificate. Basically, they froze my promotion as a way to strong arm more money out of my Sensei. USJA can kiss it for all I'm concerned, what a farce of an organization.

I have a very low opinion of everything to do with judo in the US. It is beyond asinine, this weird 3 NGB system. I have an IJF (KJA) 2nd dan. It's good everywhere in the world. Even Japan. (Well, maybe not Hawaii.) It's beyond my comprehension why I have to jump through so many hoops because USJI, USJA and USJF can't get their shit together.

 

[Doughbelly]

for sure. they ham it up in demos, but when you're actually practicing with them you really appreciate how strong the grips are and how fluid the motions are.

then there's the kicking...holy shit.

what i've always tried to stress for newbies in Hapkido is that not all of the moves are designed to 'work' from the context they're learned in, but to improve their appreciation of their balance, uke's balance, and the footwork. that and improve their ukemi, which for my money is the most important part of the art.

Hapkido was the best thing I did for my Judo. well, until I let blue belts practice wakigatame on me...

I've probably slagged on HKD more than any other black belt on this board. Probably more than I have a right to.

You do bring up a good point regarding something I do feel does come naturally to someone coming from that background, which is that hoshinsul teaches precise, exacting movements in a discretely measured, step-by-step method.

Flow and fluidity is something that is difficult to instruct and even relatively advanced students assume fluidity means everything is moving all at once, without discrete steps when flow is really those discrete steps happening in the correct order. You're speaking to circular footwork like harai goshi and tai otoshi, right?

While I don't regret having spent so much time in doing HKD, it will soon come time for me to do for my nephews what my uncles did for me in guiding their progress through the martial arts and I doubt HKD will be a large part of the program.

Maybe. I don't know. If there's any one thing that's well and truly saved my life more than once, it's been the ability to do long, diving rollouts the couple times I've gone over the bars on my motorcycle at high speed. Judo ukemi isn't even in the same league.

 

[stinkoman]

art of fighting could you please describe some diffrences of hwa rang do and hapkido and how respected is hwa rang do in korea? Im familliar with Hapkido and its working have done sparring with Tae kwon do and Tang soo do practiocners so I have a somewhat understanding of Korean styles.

I have no experince what so ever with it but from what I heard from somebody I know who he has claimed to trained in it thats its a watered down version of hapkido,with fancy unifroms and alot of knife work and disarms.Again only going by what he told and the few articles I read in Black belt magazine.

 

[ArTofF16hT1ng]

Art of Fighting could you please describe some differences of Hwa Rang Do and Hapkido and how respected Hwa Rang Do is in Korea? I'm familiar with Hapkido and how it works and I have done sparring with Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do practitioners so I have somewhat of a understanding of the Korean styles.

I have no experience with Hwa Rang Do but from what I heard from someone who claimed to trained in it is that it's a watered down version of Hapkido, with fancy uniforms and a lot of knife work and disarms. Again, I'm only going by what he told me and the few articles that I read in Black belt magazine.

The arts are essentially the same. The founder of the art wanted to mystify the origins of it by tracing it back to the original Hwa Rang, but in actuality he learned from Ji Han Jae who was Choi Yong Sul's top student and Choi Yong Sul was the founder of Hapkido.

Hwa Rang Do practitioners do wear fancy dobaks and do a lot of weapons practice that is practically useless in this day in age. In that regard, it's more like Wushu in that it is a demo art.

I would say about 50% of it is BS demo stuff and the other 50% with proper application and critical thinking can be used for actual combat.

 

[Doughbelly]

Finally saw some of those videos. I don't really have a high regard for most of those krav maga demo techniques, either.

At least there weren't any joint lock throws. I'm trying to be not such a negative person, so I'll just stop there.

 

[ArTofF16hT1ng]

Finally saw some of those videos. I don't really have a high regard for most of those krav maga demo techniques, either.

At least there weren't any joint lock throws. I'm trying to be not such a negative person, so I'll just stop there.

To each his own I suppose.

Side note: I pulled off waki-gatame last night on a whim. It was completely legal too, hehehe.

 

[Discipulus]

Finally saw some of those videos. I don't really have a high regard for most of those krav maga demo techniques, either.

At least there weren't any joint lock throws. I'm trying to be not such a negative person, so I'll just stop there.

Just wondering--what's wrong with joint lock throws? I don't have any grappling experience, so I don't know what's up.

Edit: I was actually thinking of takedowns from joint locks, but that's probably not what you mean, is it? You probably mean like aikido-style throws from wristlocks and such, right?

 

[RJ Green]

Just wondering--what's wrong with joint lock throws? I don't have any grappling experience, so I don't know what's up.

Edit: I was actually thinking of takedowns from joint locks, but that's probably not what you mean, is it? You probably mean like aikido-style throws from wristlocks and such, right?

as uke/recipient in practice, you learn to airfall for the jointlock throws because that saves a lot of wear and tear on your joints.

-but-

then you get observers/white/orange/green/blue belts who think that, if properly applied, a wrist lock will send someone ass-over-head. not even close.

ruin someone's day? sure. flip them over demo style? hell no.

most demos are highly unrealistic, but that's why they're demos. it gets people in the door.

 

[Doughbelly]

I just think it's extremely unrealistic to control a human body from the wrist. At the very least, the elbow has to be immobilized directly.

I think if you enter a control technique at just the wrist, then you better be 100% ready to break the arm if/when you start losing control. Regular practice with the flip, you never really know at what point you would have lost control.

This goes to the small circle versus big circle concepts in hapkido. I think small circle is a neat concept, but doesn't work in practice very well. Small circle also means uke has to turn in less to break the circle.

I have a strong grip, but small hands. Realistically, I have to have both hands on a large boned man's hands and wrists for any kind of control. I have to let go with one hand to establish elbow control and if a big, strong person wants to break loose, then there's not much I can do about it. Fundamentally, from palm to back of the hand, there's really only two grips, three fingers around on flesh of the palm on the thumb side or on the pinky side. If I have a deep enough grip on the flesh, then the primary pushing point is my thumb, not the base of my thumb. That's a huge difference in torque. In other words, instead of ki finger position, I have to lock my thumb out, so its no longer ki finger, it's L finger.

That's my perspective.

But yeah, demo is demo.

 

[Blue Streak]

I think 2 or 3 strikes before finishing a standing joint lock is within reason.

The problem I have with this is that if you continue to strike after gaining control of a limb, you run a significant risk of losing control of it. It is very hard to maintain control of an opponent's limb with just one hand.

In several techniques displayed in the Krav Maga video (which overall I thought was really good) tori captures uke's arm with his hand/arm, then lands a couple more strikes before executing the joint lock, in the meantime uke just leaves his hand there. To me that is unrealistic. All it would take is for uke to jerk his arm back (a natural response so that he can continue striking) and tori has lost control of the limb, unless tori is significantly stronger than uke (something you can't rely on).

Now, if you are talking landing strikes AFTER you have locked your opponent up, well that is always a good idea so long as you don't comprise the lock in order to do so.

 

[RJ Green]

yeah. feasible with enough strength and practice? sure. practical? not even.

i've used what i've learned in Hapkido to restrain unruly drunkards, but i sure as shit wasn't trying to wrist lock them...

Dr. Jong Kyun Choi from Sun Moon was visiting our club this summer, and has come over a few times before. He uses his bottom three fingers for his grip, with the pointer extended. Absolutely unreal sensation.

I just think it's extremely unrealistic to control a human body from the wrist. At the very least, the elbow has to be immobilized directly.

I think if you enter a control technique at just the wrist, then you better be 100% ready to break the arm if/when you start losing control. Regular practice with the flip, you never really know at what point you would have lost control.

This goes to the small circle versus big circle concepts in hapkido. I think small circle is a neat concept, but doesn't work in practice very well. Small circle also means uke has to turn in less to break the circle.

I have a strong grip, but small hands. Realistically, I have to have both hands on a large boned man's hands and wrists for any kind of control. I have to let go with one hand to establish elbow control and if a big, strong person wants to break loose, then there's not much I can do about it. Fundamentally, from palm to back of the hand, there's really only two grips, three fingers around on flesh of the palm on the thumb side or on the pinky side. If I have a deep enough grip on the flesh, then the primary pushing point is my thumb, not the base of my thumb. That's a huge difference in torque. In other words, instead of ki finger position, I have to lock my thumb out, so its no longer ki finger, it's L finger.

That's my perspective.

But yeah, demo is demo.

 

[Blue Streak]

I just think it's extremely unrealistic to control a human body from the wrist. At the very least, the elbow has to be immobilized directly.

I think if you enter a control technique at just the wrist, then you better be 100% ready to break the arm if/when you start losing control. Regular practice with the flip, you never really know at what point you would have lost control.

This goes to the small circle versus big circle concepts in hapkido. I think small circle is a neat concept, but doesn't work in practice very well. Small circle also means uke has to turn in less to break the circle.

I have a strong grip, but small hands. Realistically, I have to have both hands on a large boned man's hands and wrists for any kind of control. I have to let go with one hand to establish elbow control and if a big, strong person wants to break loose, then there's not much I can do about it. Fundamentally, from palm to back of the hand, there's really only two grips, three fingers around on flesh of the palm on the thumb side or on the pinky side. If I have a deep enough grip on the flesh, then the primary pushing point is my thumb, not the base of my thumb. That's a huge difference in torque. In other words, instead of ki finger position, I have to lock my thumb out, so its no longer ki finger, it's L finger.

That's my perspective.

But yeah, demo is demo.

Not quite sure I understand what you are talking about here. What do you mean by "immobilise the elbow directly"?

I'm not familiar with HKD or Akido, but I have learnt several standing joint locks in my ju-jutsu training that target the wrist and are effective. They are almost exclusively executed with uke's arm fully extended or bent 90 degrees at the elbow, though. Not sure if this is what you mean by having the elbow immobilised.