SS and SL- can and should beginners do more? Or do it differently?

Hey he asked^ when you ask me something i respond in a way i deem appropriate
 
Holy fuck.

This is approaching PR levels of cringe.
 
The point is Jim that adding bodybuilding work wasnt going to improve the program by any great lengths and to point out that the main lifts is the driver. A few sets of curls/rows/abs wasnt going to make the program "better" than just focusing on the main lifts and putting all recovery to the main program without bodvbuilding fluff. There is a reason that Rippetoe advocates against this for novices as 30+ years of coaching experience of getting people strong would dictate. Its a free world so believe what you will.
 
You're missing the point.

But that's okay. I'm bowing out lol.
 
I'll say this - I don't think it's a coincidence that a lot of people who get into lifting through SS or similar linear programs have a shitty bench compared to deads + squats. It's also not a coincidence that a lot of bros at the gym have a good bench. I personally feel basic linear progression programs can get your squat and deadlift up pretty good without much assistance, but I think hypertrophy work would probably be good for bench.
 
Some peoples bench because of anthropometry and other genetic factors arent going to have huge benches regardless of the program and regardless if they add bodybuilding fluff. That is just a fact of life. I ran the starting Strength program for all its worth to 365 bench at 195 like you see in the pictures. I had a 440 squat and a 560-70 deadlift at the end along with a 225 OHP. Your milage will vary but the program is solid and in my opinion the best for a novice to use.
 
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And Jim dont leave so fast please...im here for discussion and to pick up on things just like most people here so do tell me what im missing dude?
 
Less thinking and more lifting please.
 
JimRussel said:
Yes. I do.
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Fair enough.

I just see the idea that beginners should do these very minimal programmes, and that this isn't just "okay" but actually optimal. I came to the conclusion a while ago it's not true at all. I wanted to how many others agree with me.

If anything is disappointing for me, it's the number of people who didn't really answer the question. Just saying "It's easy" or repeating the official line. Few people saying "Yes, minimal programmes like that really are optimal" or "No, beginners can and should do more". I think there should be a consensus about that at least.
 
boingyman said:
Less thinking and more lifting please.
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Never really understood this.

A load of people here spend enough time in the gym. Why not post on the internet or read about S&C when not in the gym?
 
JauntyAngle said:
Few people saying "Yes, minimal programmes like that really are optimal" or "No, beginners can and should do more". I think there should be a consensus about that at least.
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But I just think that's one of those things you will never see a consensus for. Some people will be of one opinion, some will be of the other.

IMO, if you can cover the basics (learning the main lifts) and still do more work that will be beneficial to your lifting, both short and long term, why wouldn't you?

Why would less work be better if you could do more?

I'm curious how many really good lifters started out doing something as minimalist as Starting Strength.
 
JimRussel said:
But I just think that's one of those things you will never see a consensus for. Some people will be of one opinion, some will be of the other.

IMO, if you can cover the basics (learning the main lifts) and still do more work that will be beneficial to your lifting, both short and long term, why wouldn't you?

Why would less work be better if you could do more?
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You're right, of course.

But I think the strict SS/SL crowd say you can, but it will lead to worse results. But I just don't think that's going to be true for most people.

I'm curious how many really good lifters started out doing something as minimalist as Starting Strength.
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I'm also curious. While for some people it gets them up to some okay numbers for 4-5 months of training, being so minimalist there is a lot foundations you would be missing. Then again, if you have high potential, presumably you can recover from a not great first 4-5 months.
 
JimRussel said:
Google image search of "starting strength transformation". Fucking lol. You better believe I was doing isolation movements and arm work. Who wants to put in a bunch of hard work and still look like shit?
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Agree with your post entirely. I swear sometimes when I read training forums I think people spend more time worrying about dialing in a program and being a form nazi than they do lifting weights.

Wanted to touch on this part I quoted though as I was largely concerned with this when I started SS. I think a lot of the "transformations" we see (the bad ones) are because Ripptoe is telling a bunch of people who dont know any better that they need to guzzle whole milk and stuff their faces to get strong.
 
pokerandbeer said:
Some peoples bench because of anthropometry and other genetic factors arent going to have huge benches regardless of the program and regardless if they add bodybuilding fluff. That is just a fact of life. I ran the starting Strength program for all its worth to 365 bench at 195 like you see in the pictures. I had a 440 squat and a 560-70 deadlift at the end along with a 225 OHP. Your milage will vary but the program is solid and in my opinion the best for a novice to use.
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You went to a 365 lbs bench at 195 lbs as a beginner from SS? Color me very skeptical. My guess is that you had quite a bit of experience with bench.

I've seen a lot of lifters on this forum and others through the years that ran beginner programs. I can say for a fact that I've seen a lot more posters who have squats + deadlifts high compared to their bench than vice versa.
 
Oblivian said:
You went to a 365 lbs bench at 195 lbs as a beginner from SS? Color me very skeptical. My guess is that you had quite a bit of experience with bench.

I've seen a lot of lifters on this forum and others through the years that ran beginner programs. I can say for a fact that I've seen a lot more posters who have squats + deadlifts high compared to their bench than vice versa.
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I get what you are saying and I notice the same thing. But yes thats exactly what I did over a 7 month period. It is very squat centric obviously(compared to upper body) but the reasons he gives for including the OHP in the book are sound(which decreases the amount you bench and vice versa). I mean look at PLTW novice powerlifting program where you only bench because it is specific to powerlifting for example. My experience of productive lifting period really isnt that much ive run a shortened starting strength(and a short stint with a 5/3/1 variation before and the BFS program in high school. So really i started from square one when I got to those numbers.
 
DEAD and GOMAD are for severely underfed pubescent boys who are "hard gainers". I don't think any reasonably sized individual should be consuming that type of diet. If I wanted to weigh 330 lbs, I would start eating that way.

There are many iterations of SS, not just the basic models. There are versions with curls and skull crushers and abs etc.

Most of the time if someone just puts their head down and does some barbell lifts, they will get stronger. If that person wants to do some DB curls or lateral raises, it's not going to be at the detriment of their gains, it could very well benefit them. Or not. Whatever.


That's just, like, my opinion, man.
 
JauntyAngle said:
Never really understood this.

A load of people here spend enough time in the gym. Why not post on the internet or read about S&C when not in the gym?
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Not a matter of not posting or reading. But you can def easily spot people who spend more time worrying about that stuff than they do putting in hard ass work. Always searching for "the answer", when the answer is most often just really simple hard work.
 
Work hard and smart, and always together. Otherwise you are just digging yourself a hole just to fill in.
 
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