Someone Explain This So Called Housing Crisis?

You're proving our point with this example and you can't even see that.

Replacing one $2 million dollar unit with multiple $1 million ones is making housing 50% more affordable on that plot of land and boosting supply while also turning a profit for the developer. Sure its not "affordable" or "low income" housing in the way that a progressive person might imagine but JVS and I aren't arguing from that perspective, in fact neither of us originally invoked either of those terms IIRC.
Sure...it's not affordable. Then I'm not proving your point. My point from the very beginning is that there is housing for people willing to pay the high prices that go with it. That people want single family homes, not apartments.

Are you saying that your point is that there's a shortage of million dollar apartments in urban areas?
This is exactly the scenario I mentioned earlier and which you acted incredulous about and yet here you are admitting you've represented people who've done just that.
Also not what I said. Your 2 examples were talking about home owners modifying their existing premises. What I'm talking about is a developer, not a home owner, tearing down expensive real estate to build more expensive real estate instead of building affordable housing.

But my bad. If you had said from the beginning that you've been talking about million dollar properties and not housing for the middle class we could have skipped all of this.
 
Sure...it's not affordable. Then I'm not proving your point. My point from the very beginning is that there is housing for people willing to pay the high prices that go with it. That people want single family homes, not apartments.

Are you saying that your point is that there's a shortage of million dollar apartments in urban areas?

But my bad. If you had said from the beginning that you've been talking about million dollar properties and not housing for the middle class we could have skipped all of this.
I said from the beginning that what I am arguing for is more market rate housing by allowing higher density in existing low density suburbs which would bring prices down. In your own example converting a $2 million SFH into multiple $1 million is a decrease in price. As I said a few times ITT there are certain areas that have so much pent up demand that allowing more density might bring prices down but not enough so that they are "low income" but that's fine, that's the market at work.

If you apply this across the metro area you will get lower prices. So a suburb further from the core where a SFH might be worth $1 million being converted into multiple $500,000 apartments is a relative improvement in the affordability of housing in that area. Go further and where there's homes worth $500,000 they could be converted into multiple $250,000 apartments and so on and so forth across the R1 suburbs.

I understand that many people want to live in and own SFHs, that's fine because I am not advocating for them to be banned. I am simply advocating for allowing other housing types to be built across the metro area to better meet demand instead of being confined to a minority of the land. In San Jose ~93% of residential land is zoned exclusively for SFHs and it has among the highest home prices in the nation, not an accident.
Also not what I said. Your 2 examples were talking about home owners modifying their existing premises. What I'm talking about is a developer, not a home owner, tearing down expensive real estate to build more expensive real estate instead of building affordable housing.
In the context of the housing market its still more units added to the market to be rented or sold. Idk how you don't get that.
 
Yes but that is not the goal of real estate developers. You repeatedly conflate the two. You might use government to reduce zoning restrictions but, unless government is building the homes, it will be private sector developers who decide what gets built and at what price point. And, as rational actors, they will build what generates the greatest return for themselves.
Not in collusion, though. People who sell everything would like for that thing to be as expensive as possible, but market competition drives prices down. Again, it's weird to me that this needs to be explained.
You can pull the data yourself. I just posted the most visibly engaging graph. Housing prices didn't pull back until inflation hit the interest rates.

No, but I know that real estate pressures are partially driven by cultural components so it makes little sense to introduce a community in Japan when the United States is what we're talking about and there are more than enough cities and towns to use for your examples.
It's just simple supply and demand. There's no particular reason to think that supply and demand don't drive prices in the U.S.
For someone who knows more about economics than most, your position here has a real blind spot. Probably because you don't really understand what drives the developers in the market. You seem to think that artificial restraints on housing supply only restrict the creation of affordable housing.
I don't think that and haven't said anything that would give that impression. I explicitly said that it's not a binary category.

Additionally, for prices to come down, supply must exceed demand. But there's absolutely nothing out there that suggests that the demand for high price housing has topped out or even remotely come close to exceeding the demand for such housing.
"High-price housing" isn't a separate category either. There is a range of prices in housing. You don't know that?
But there isn't scarcity for "all". Weird. The only scarcity that exists in in "affordable" housing.
Huh? If a lot of people want to buy widgets, and widgets are in limited supply, the price is bid up. Framing that as "there is only scarcity in cheap widgets" is just an error.

The personal stuff is beneath response.
 
I don't think it's rational to expect logistical issues to vanish after an arbitrary wealth value has been reached.
I don't think food deserts are caused by logistical issues.
 
Rational behavior. Tear down a $2 million dollar house and replace it multiple million dollar apartments. Same plot of land, larger return. That's how real estate works. It's completely irrational to assume that developers will be unaware of the greater return if they choose that alternative. It's not economic warfare against the public. That's a silly perspective. The developers are operating within the private sector and their objective is maximum return for themselves by selling to the private sector. They have zero interest in losing money to benefit the public good. They're not in the housing welfare business. Losing money they don't have to lose is irrational behavior.

My statement was that anyone who can afford the $2 million house can afford the $1 million apartment (you got it backwards). And, yes, that's right. Anyone who can afford $2 million for the house can afford $1 million for the apartment.

Yes but that is not the goal of real estate developers. You repeatedly conflate the two. You might use government to reduce zoning restrictions but, unless government is building the homes, it will be private sector developers who decide what gets built and at what price point. And, as rational actors, they will build what generates the greatest return for themselves.

You can pull the data yourself. I just posted the most visibly engaging graph. Housing prices didn't pull back until inflation hit the interest rates.

No, but I know that real estate pressures are partially driven by cultural components so it makes little sense to introduce a community in Japan when the United States is what we're talking about and there are more than enough cities and towns to use for your examples.

For someone who knows more about economics than most, your position here has a real blind spot. Probably because you don't really understand what drives the developers in the market. You seem to think that artificial restraints on housing supply only restrict the creation of affordable housing. Completely blind to the possibility that the restraints also restrict the creation of more high end housing. :eek:

Additionally, for prices to come down, supply must exceed demand. But there's absolutely nothing out there that suggests that the demand for high price housing has topped out or even remotely come close to exceeding the demand for such housing.




But there isn't scarcity for "all". Weird. The only scarcity that exists in in "affordable" housing. And you seem to have no idea how developers work. Or an understanding that the type of housing you're asking for is economically unfeasible to construct.

I can't waste more time on this. I represent builders and developers from buyers flipping single family houses, converting them into duplexes or building multimillion dollar projects from the ground up. I own a real estate title company and I see what the developers are actually acquiring and what they intend to do with it. I negotiate the contracts and argue in front of the zoning boards, the license and inspection boards, etc. regularly. I get to sit in on the public policy meetings that push for affordable housing in my community (quietly and in the back of the room). And I get to sit in with the real estate community that genuinely lobbies for more affordable housing with real lobbyists, not just community organizers.

With all due respect, you don't understand this industry and surface level "If you just remove government, the private sector will build it" platitudes make that overwhelmingly clear. Every place understands that simply removing government restrictions on building will not result in more affordable housing. Every conversation is about how to incentivize the private sector to sink money into something that makes zero economic sense. But since you seem to think you know more than the people who are literally spending millions of their own dollars trying to accomplish the same goal, I'll leave you to it.
I have little to contribute here on either side of the discussion except that I think government should be in the business of building homes. Why not?
 
In demand product with supply controlled by the wealthy (corporations, banks, rich people) buying up land
 
In demand product with supply controlled by the wealthy (corporations, banks, rich people) buying up land
The supply is restricted much more by middle class households in existing R1 suburbs who agitate against any further development in their area.
 
Great Pay Wall of China is blocking me, can you quote the most relevant part?
Same issue, but I caught enough before the paywall message came up to see what the study was, and here's another piece on it:


Doesn't really make sense. Seems to me like the same conceptual errors Pan was making--defining "affordable/unaffordable" as a binary category and not realizing that supply/demand dynamics are what determine prices.

It's not like I can say, "OK, I'm going to a build a $2M house here" and I get $2M for it. You build a house where you build it, using the materials and plans you use, and then it sells for whatever the highest bidder is willing to pay. No guarantee that you even get what you paid for it. And wherever you draw the line on affordability, you have absurd results.

Also, here's a very short interview with one of the authors of the study:


Alex Schwartz: The new Housing Vacancy Survey is a shocker. Previous iterations of the survey had shown the overall vacancy rate inching up towards the five percent level that, under current law, would allow for the lifting of rent regulation – although vacancies for units renting under $1500 remained very low. The latest HVS pegged the overall vacancy rate at just 1.41 percent, a sharp drop from 4.54 percent in 2021.

Vacancies for units renting for less than $1650 (less than $1500 in 2021) remained under one percent. However, the survey shows big decreases in vacancy rates for more expensive units. Those renting for $1,650 to $2,399 ($1,500 to $2299 in 2021) had a vacancy rate of just 0.78 percent, down from four percent. The vacancy rate for the most expensive apartments ($2400+ in 2023; $2300+ in 2021) fell from 12.6 percent to just 3.4 percent.

Seems like pretty clear evidence that NYC has a shortage. And, BTW, I think that the housing shortage is not a nationwide issue--it's concentrated in certain very high-demand locations, and the study referred to looks more broadly.

Here's an NYT piece related to the interview:

 
The supply is restricted much more by middle class households in existing R1 suburbs who agitate against any further development in their area.
in california, we had a low key MASSIVE zoning change that allowed to build additional ADU's in said suburbs, it's a big deal, but the problem is that permits are extremely costly and getting people to exercise their ability to branch out, even to comprehend the changes, will take a long time........ if you're looking to buy a house, waiting a decade for this to play out is like waiting an eternity. It's still going to cost you two arms and a leg for 400-600 sq feet of living space.........
 
in california, we had a low key MASSIVE zoning change that allowed to build additional ADU's in said suburbs, it's a big deal, but the problem is that permits are extremely costly and getting people to exercise their ability to branch out, even to comprehend the changes, will take a long time........ if you're looking to buy a house, waiting a decade for this to play out is like waiting an eternity. It's still going to cost you two arms and a leg for 400-600 sq feet of living space.........
Streamlining permits and cutting other red tape is essential to generating enough supply. There are some localities that have preapproved multifamily units that developers can build to bypass some of those issues, maybe that's part of the solution here.
Same issue, but I caught enough before the paywall message came up to see what the study was, and here's another piece on it:


Doesn't really make sense. Seems to me like the same conceptual errors Pan was making--defining "affordable/unaffordable" as a binary category and not realizing that supply/demand dynamics are what determine prices.

It's not like I can say, "OK, I'm going to a build a $2M house here" and I get $2M for it. You build a house where you build it, using the materials and plans you use, and then it sells for whatever the highest bidder is willing to pay. No guarantee that you even get what you paid for it. And wherever you draw the line on affordability, you have absurd results.

Also, here's a very short interview with one of the authors of the study:




Seems like pretty clear evidence that NYC has a shortage. And, BTW, I think that the housing shortage is not a nationwide issue--it's concentrated in certain very high-demand locations, and the study referred to looks more broadly.

Here's an NYT piece related to the interview:

The mismatch between low demand, high supply cities and high demand, low supply cities is what I figured accounted for a part of the supposed 3.3 million in surplus cited in the study but the article mentions that it technically also includes dilapidated houses and vacation homes so honestly I think that stat is basically useless.
Leave it to AoL:

Thanks. What's interesting is that even that link admits that adding more supply reduces prices
Building more housing is also seen as an effective way to lower rents. A seminal piece of research from NYU’s Furman Center found that building more homes actually lowers rents.

New housing developments often raise the fears of gentrification; that existing residents will get priced out of ritzy new apartments in formerly affordable neighborhoods. The Furman Center research contends that the law of supply and demand holds true in the housing market as well.

A widely cited example from 2016 in Auckland, New Zealand, found that when about three-quarters of the city was rezoned to allow for denser housing construction, housing supply increased 4%. Meanwhile, rents for three-bedroom apartments dropped 26% to 33% compared with similar areas, according to a working paper from May 2023.

Other studies have found the effect of new housing isn’t usually as stark as the Auckland example. More often than not, overall rents do still rise when new housing is built, but not as quickly as they would have otherwise.
 
Streamlining permits and cutting other red tape is essential to generating enough supply. There are some localities that have preapproved multifamily units that developers can build to bypass some of those issues, maybe that's part of the solution here.

The mismatch between low demand, high supply cities and high demand, low supply cities is what I figured accounted for a part of the supposed 3.3 million in surplus cited in the study but the article mentions that it technically also includes dilapidated houses and vacation homes so honestly I think that stat is basically useless.

Thanks. What's interesting is that even that link admits that adding more supply reduces prices

There wasnt argument that adding more supply doesn't lower prices. The contention is that the idea that the US housing problem is solely an issue of lack of supply is not true.

I'm not sure if you've tried to rent anytime recently but we are moving within the next month and have looked at rentals around here, the economic gatekeeping is absurd. We looked at s place yesterday that had a $300 key fee. Places are charging $50 a month "pet rent"...like our dog has a paying job. Oh and pet deposits are increasingly non-refundable. None of this sh*t was present when I first starting living on my own in the 90's. No one was charging for a key. There's also rental requirement that disqualify people with housing vouchers. So even if you get assistance from the Government, property owners can tell you to get f*cked.
 
There wasnt argument that adding more supply doesn't lower prices. The contention is that the idea that the US housing problem is solely an issue of lack of supply is not true.
I think that lack of supply is the core problem. If you look at the US as a whole it doesn't look that way because there's lots of cheap housing in low demand areas but that's an erroneous way to frame the issue IMO. A bunch of cheap housing and vacation homes in West Virginia where there are no jobs is not going to help New Yorkers struggling to afford rent.

If not supply though what do you think the issue is?
 
I think that lack of supply is the core problem. If you look at the US as a whole it doesn't look that way because there's lots of cheap housing in low demand areas but that's an erroneous way to frame the issue IMO. A bunch of cheap housing and vacation homes in West Virginia where there are no jobs is not going to help New Yorkers struggling to afford rent.

If not supply though what do you think the issue is?

See some of what I'm experiencing above.
 
If not supply though what do you think the issue is?

There is no "the issue".

We know for a fact that price fixing is an issue.

Supply is an issue.

Corporate competition

Comodificaiton of mortgages

An entrenched upper-middle-class with financial incentives to protect the status quo. And zoning determined by local politicians most accountable to existing home owners.
 
its obamas fault just read into it some... during the collapse he let all the corporations buy up housing.. and did let people who still had a good job get a decent loan....
 
There wasnt argument that adding more supply doesn't lower prices. The contention is that the idea that the US housing problem is solely an issue of lack of supply is not true.

I'm not sure if you've tried to rent anytime recently but we are moving within the next month and have looked at rentals around here, the economic gatekeeping is absurd. We looked at s place yesterday that had a $300 key fee. Places are charging $50 a month "pet rent"...like our dog has a paying job. Oh and pet deposits are increasingly non-refundable. None of this sh*t was present when I first starting living on my own in the 90's. No one was charging for a key. There's also rental requirement that disqualify people with housing vouchers. So even if you get assistance from the Government, property owners can tell you to get f*cked.
it's not true because banking is also tied into housing

here is one of the core components of the article:

"From 2000 to 2010 the U.S. had a surplus of 4.6 million housing units, while in the following decade there was a shortage of 1.3 million fewer units than population growth would demand. All combined, that nets out to a surplus of 3.3 million homes from 2000 to 2020."

the numbers in the 2000's had horrible banking practices, essentially DEI of mortgages, which lead to the ballooning of prices.... did we really have a surplus? curiously, 2010 was added into that timeframe, the market had already crashed and bottomed at that point, stats and lies and all that.

anecdotally, housing is a bit of a lost cause without ample mult family units. Any and EVERYTIME I see a building being built, it's luxury homes with luxury prices. That goes for 20 years ago when KB was still building mcmansions, to now, still building mcmansions, this is just how it is all throughout the world as living standards increase.

the argument that the article makes is that we have the supply, but not enough for the given income, and it's a weird twist on the subject, and it's not totally wrong, we are lacking supply of affordable housing
 
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