Some very old muay thai vs kyokushin videos

[Tayski]

I think you’re overestimating the value parents put on “karate” vs. “martial arts”. Parents don’t care and will assume they are the same thing already. I’d label it “martial arts” and teach what ever the hell you pleased. Mix karate technique with boxing or Muay Thai or what ever. Your program, your syllabus, your class.

You have no idea how much we've already suggested that to him over the last few years, only to end up in deaf ears.

 

[Dexter]

its for karen and kens little karen and ken jr

Just don't listen to all your haters in this thread - @Tayski, @JohnPJones, @SandisLL, @AndyMaBobs and others! They're necks deep in that OSS-cult, so very envy about others and no clear vision about how you, with all your great experience in combat sports, with the additional help of YT and other videos, could easily learn and be a coach (sensei or even shihan) in different TMA disciplines, not just MT.

 

[j123]

I don't see what the issue is, to teach karate, if you have trained and fought it. Which I have already stated on here several times I plan to do but it seems to get ignored. I just don't plan to train it to a extremely high level, to be able to teach a children's class.

So you mean to get to around to green belt level, then teach from there, or are you going to get to black? I don't think the others have issue with being not the best of the best, so long as the rank and authentic knowledge is there. It's the wording that makes it sound like you plan on belting kids from 0 to black while lacking the background. That's one thing where I say its different from MT/Box, its a system with a big cultural aspect as a whole, a part where people come just for that

Personally I wouldn't open a MT gym if I only did 6 months of training and 1 exhibition/fight, that's just my character where I don't ever want to be in a spot where people ask certain things and I'm left dumbfounded or not 100% sure. I see it in the same light. Bear in mind, I'm not a white knight for karate, but just someone who views integrity in high standing along with not adding fuel to the already McDojo-ism of all combat sports.

I don't feel I need to have won the 100 man kumite to teach 10 year old karate. Nor do I see the need to be WBC champ to teach a MT class to children.

No you wouldn't need to have the 100 kumite under your belt (no pun intended), but at least being belted to do so. Kids aren't naive anymore like back in the day, the internet age really has spread its reach everywhere. Kids who are in gr 4 right now have better cell phones than I do and with full data plans covered. If a kid is really passionate about the special K, he or she will be watching YouTube videos and would wonder about certain methods. Their parents maybe as well

The thought behind karate is to use it as a foot in the door, start the really young ones out with karate. Teach a basic children's syllabus and once they get their black belt at 10, transition them into the older kids class of MT.

Is that the cap off? 10 years old and they never touch K again? If lil Joey wants more karate and you cut it off "you're too old Joe, slap on the shorts and join the new classes on mat #2", what's to stop his parents from pulling the plug and going to another gym since he or she likes the Karate they've come to enjoy about the gym.

All this could be seamless by hiring a karate coach to delegate stuff. It happens in MMA gyms all the time, the jack of trades coach will leave that to the specialist BJJ guy will handle grappling classes. Hell Grant Brothers did that here, long boxing pedigree, but hired others to handle the MT, BJJ, etc

As I've mentioned in the previous post, it seems like an awful lot of legwork just to get people to the door, and retraining bad habits over time is alot more difficult than working with a blank slate.

its crossed my mind, but its gotta be in a GI to appeal to the parents, as thats how they view martial arts for kids.

Why not offer a Sambo program, it requires a gi as well. Adults who are into MMA love Sambo, its something thats far and few in north america, and an untapped market.

 

[Azam]

I don't see what the issue is, to teach karate, if you have trained and fought it. Which I have already stated on here several times I plan to do but it seems to get ignored.

I just don't plan to train it to a extremely high level, to be able to teach a children's class.

There's a difference between the child syllabus and adult syllabus for karate. If I'm going to teach children's karate I should know the children's syllabus. If a 10 year old can be a blackbelt. A grown man should be able to learn that children's syllabus relatively quickly. Then add on my own cross training and competing in karate. plus my 20 years of martial art experience. I don't see the big issue.

I don't feel I need to have won the 100 man kumite to teach 10 year old karate. Nor do I see the need to be WBC champ to teach a MT class to children.

The thought behind karate is to use it as a foot in the door, start the really young ones out with karate. Teach a basic children's syllabus and once they get their black belt at 10, transition them into the older kids class of MT.

Repeating myself here but...
I plan on learning everything required to run a children's class, which in essence is the child's syllabus. Which I should be able to learn faster than a 10 year old.

I might end up have to label it kids martial arts, but I will still have to learn the children's syllabus at the very least. Also my MT coach is also a karate coach and runs a kids karate school. So I am already exposed to it. I can learn what I need to from him.


If I wanted to add a boxing class for children, I can teach it despite not being a boxer. I have cross trained it and fought it once. I don't think everyone would be throwing a hissy fit over that. I don't think I can run a high level boxing gym, but I can surely teach children the basics.

Look my dude. I'm going to show you in simple terms why this plan is flawed and getting backlash.

Competing and training in Karate a bit isn't going to give you the knowledge of how to teach the Karate curriculum or syllabus. You could train boxing for a year and have a few fights - but would you be able to teach it to others and in a way that does service to boxing as an art?

Just like learning a few submissions or training a bit of BJJ or competing as a white belt - won't give you the knowledge required to teach BJJ.

You might be a great BJJ competitor with just a few submissions - but BJJ encompasses more than just a few submissions. Likewise Karate encompasses more than just a few karate techniques that you might pick up.

Ignore the philosophy/culture bullshit.

I'm talking about actual techniques that are a part of the karate curriculum - the stances, the uke (blocks/parries), all the kicking repertoire, all the punching & open hand techniques, all the forms, all the specific drills & partner drills that you will be required to learn and will have to know to be able to teach karate properly.

It's like if I decided with 10 years of KK/Kudo experience to go train MT for a couple of months to pick up elbows, knees and clinching. Ask yourself how well am I going to be able to pick up all those things - in 6 months - will it be well enough to teach it? Not to mention all of the other stuff in MT that's not in Karate that I won't simply have time to cover. Then imagine I decide to start teaching kids MT....just because fuck it they're kids.

You tell me as someone that has done MT for over 20 years and fought - wouldn't that be a huge disservice to MT as an art - to do something like that. It would be like me shitting on the doorstep of MT.


This is not me shitting on your parade or telling you not to teach kids.

By all means teach kids if you want - but at least have the know how first before you decide to teach.

And if you don't want to spend the years that will be required to teach karate - just teach kids kickboxing - you're more than qualified for something like that.

Kids kickboxing is pretty popular even with kids & soccer moms. You can make them wear black karate gi and just teach kickboxing. As long as the respect/discipline aspects is there most parents won't care - they enroll their kids into TMAs for those reasons more than anything else.

 

[shincheckin]

So you mean to get to around to green belt level, then teach from there, or are you going to get to black? I don't think the others have issue with being not the best of the best, so long as the rank and authentic knowledge is there. It's the wording that makes it sound like you plan on belting kids from 0 to black while lacking the background. That's one thing where I say its different from MT/Box, its a system with a big cultural aspect as a whole, a part where people come just for that

Personally I wouldn't open a MT gym if I only did 6 months of training and 1 exhibition/fight, that's just my character where I don't ever want to be in a spot where people ask certain things and I'm left dumbfounded or not 100% sure. I see it in the same light. Bear in mind, I'm not a white knight for karate, but just someone who views integrity in high standing along with not adding fuel to the already McDojo-ism of all combat sports.


No you wouldn't need to have the 100 kumite under your belt (no pun intended), but at least being belted to do so. Kids aren't naive anymore like back in the day, the internet age really has spread its reach everywhere. Kids who are in gr 4 right now have better cell phones than I do and with full data plans covered. If a kid is really passionate about the special K, he or she will be watching YouTube videos and would wonder about certain methods. Their parents maybe as well


Is that the cap off? 10 years old and they never touch K again? If lil Joey wants more karate and you cut it off "you're too old Joe, slap on the shorts and join the new classes on mat #2", what's to stop his parents from pulling the plug and going to another gym since he or she likes the Karate they've come to enjoy about the gym.

All this could be seamless by hiring a karate coach to delegate stuff. It happens in MMA gyms all the time, the jack of trades coach will leave that to the specialist BJJ guy will handle grappling classes. Hell Grant Brothers did that here, long boxing pedigree, but hired others to handle the MT, BJJ, etc

As I've mentioned in the previous post, it seems like an awful lot of legwork just to get people to the door, and retraining bad habits over time is alot more difficult than working with a blank slate.


Why not offer a Sambo program, it requires a gi as well. Adults who are into MMA love Sambo, its something thats far and few in north america, and an untapped market.

how far in belt ranking I go is sort of up in the air but yes, something along the lines of getting a belt, and teaching others below that belt......something similar to when a blue belt in BJJ runs the whitebelt class. I know we have all seen stuff like that done, with no gripes about it.

Hiring additional instructors is not out of the question, such as BJJ for example. But even wit the BJJ I would still want to train it and learn it too. So im not completely ignorant to the sport and if hired instructor calls off one day or what not....I can have at least enough knowledge to cover the class. I dont plant to call myself a BJJ instructor, but if/when I run a gym, and I hire a BJJ coach, I plan to learn BJJ as well. Its something I would like to learn. Just like karate is something I would like to learn....but at my age, I am not going to kid myself, that I will be learning this different martial arts to the same level I have learned MT. The time, both by age, and free time, simply isnt there.

Better to loose ken jr when I send him off to mat #2, then never have him to begin with. I also think karate influenced MT is highly effective....keep in mind my MT coach, teaches a karate influenced MT, and his number 1 student, is one of the best nakmuays I have met in my life...he reminds me very much of fabio pinca.

Sambo, greco roman wrestling, standard wrestling, are all good things to have in a gym as well I agree. They are all things I studied, to see what I can apply to MT and the clinch, specificially the sambo and greco roman wrestling. Also sparring with MMA guys that have backgrounds in that stuff, and the moves that they were able to pull off on me, that they exposed me to, was able to open my way of thinking outside the MT box.

one more gym with a small kids mcdojo program isnt the end of the world. Karate in the US current state, is nothing but MCDojo. I have looked for legit kyokushin gyms to train at. They dont exist.

 

[shincheckin]

Look my dude. I'm going to show you in simple terms why this plan is flawed and getting backlash.

Competing and training in Karate a bit isn't going to give you the knowledge of how to teach the Karate curriculum or syllabus. You could train boxing for a year and have a few fights - but would you be able to teach it to others and in a way that does service to boxing as an art?

Just like learning a few submissions or training a bit of BJJ or competing as a white belt - won't give you the knowledge required to teach BJJ.

You might be a great BJJ competitor with just a few submissions - but BJJ encompasses more than just a few submissions. Likewise Karate encompasses more than just a few karate techniques that you might pick up.

Ignore the philosophy/culture bullshit.

I'm talking about actual techniques that are a part of the karate curriculum - the stances, the uke (blocks/parries), all the kicking repertoire, all the punching & open hand techniques, all the forms, all the specific drills & partner drills that you will be required to learn and will have to know to be able to teach karate properly.

It's like if I decided with 10 years of KK/Kudo experience to go train MT for a couple of months to pick up elbows, knees and clinching. Ask yourself how well am I going to be able to pick up all those things - in 6 months - will it be well enough to teach it? Not to mention all of the other stuff in MT that's not in Karate that I won't simply have time to cover. Then imagine I decide to start teaching kids MT....just because fuck it they're kids.

You tell me as someone that has done MT for over 20 years and fought - wouldn't that be a huge disservice to MT as an art - to do something like that. It would be like me shitting on the doorstep of MT.


This is not me shitting on your parade or telling you not to teach kids.

By all means teach kids if you want - but at least have the know how first before you decide to teach.

And if you don't want to spend the years that will be required to teach karate - just teach kids kickboxing - you're more than qualified for something like that.

Kids kickboxing is pretty popular even with kids & soccer moms. You can make them wear black karate gi and just teach kickboxing. As long as the respect/discipline aspects is there most parents won't care - they enroll their kids into TMAs for those reasons more than anything else.

I entirely understand what you are saying and I agree with you. My only argument would be that at a high level, kyokushin and MT are more similar than they are different. at the top of the mountain, different styles are more similar than they are different. A kick is a kick a punch is a punch. I wasnt planning on only 6 months in karate, im just not going to kid myself that I have the time to dedicate another 20 years to something like I have with MT. kyokushin guys transition to MT and do well cause the sports are so similar. There isnt a whole lot to learn or re-learn. They can be lacking the clinch knee elbow game, but its not something they cant learn. Regarding the katas and all the other aspects of karate, they arent things I cant learn, and didnt intend to not learn before teaching kids. Take this analogy, i used earlier, i am not a boxer, MT is not boxing, but the sports are similar. Can I run a high level boxing gym, of course not, can I teach a kids basic boxing class, yes.

I hear everyone loud and clear in regards to not teaching karate and teaching "kids martial arts" that being said. I would still like to have a karate influence, and have them in Gis. The flexibility, control, balance, and dexterity that is gained from TMA's is huge, and overlooked by the "standard" combat sports. These are attributes I would like my fighters to have and wish I had. Add in that flexibilty and dexterity, with extremely powerful spinning kicks, axe kicks, etc.......and combine that into a high level MT fighter.......and you have a dangerous combination.

the good thing about this forum is I can see the backlash from this concept, so if I ran a gym, doing this, it may receive the same backlash...the only difference is the backlash is coming from knowledgeable karate enthusiasts, vs soccer moms. would the general public have the same attitude? I dont know. Regardless of what I end up labeling it, there will be a karate influence in whatever I teach.

ps. I respect that you can speak to me in a polite way, rather than a demeaning manor and resorting to insults. Carry the conversation with respect, as if we were face to face, rather than billy bad ass behind the keyboard. I can honestly say that if many of the people on here were to communicate with me in the same manner face to face, it would result in a fight. However most likely, in person, their communication methods would be different. respect gets respect.

 

[Woldog]

I can honestly say that if many of the people on here were to communicate with me in the same manner face to face, it would result in a fight. However most likely, in person, their communication methods would be different. respect gets respect.

But what if it was with this poster

 

[shincheckin]

But what if it was with this poster

well every poster is 6'5" and 250+ lbs, plus a master at "ufc" and "real fights" so i probably wouldnt stand a chance

 

[Tayski]

Just don't listen to all your haters in this thread - @Tayski, @JohnPJones, @SandisLL, @AndyMaBobs and others! They're necks deep in that OSS-cult, so very envy about others and no clear vision about how you, with all your great experience in combat sports, with the additional help of YT and other videos, could easily learn and be a coach (sensei or even shihan) in different TMA disciplines, not just MT.

You're trolling so good that I don't think people realise you're trolling

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Honestly, regardless of what the reason is, I think enough posters have said that this is a bad idea to suggest that it's a bad idea. I don't think a single poster has genuinely agreed with it. I went back and read the old threads about this topic, and I was polite the whole time - but for some reason it's made out like I was some bully, which isn't true, in fact most people on those threads were perfectly civil about it. I haven't bothered with these discussions because acting like we're just 'hating' isn't productive. That's all I'm saying on the topic.

 

[Dexter]

You're trolling so good that I don't think people realise you're trolling

Don’t know what’re you talking about, comrade Tayski, ‘cause I’m absolutely innocent! Just helping my fellow Sherdogger to fully embrace his dreams!

 

[DoctorTaco]

its crossed my mind, but its gotta be in a GI to appeal to the parents, as thats how they view martial arts for kids.

so put them all in the gi. It’s your class. Come up with structure to promote them for belts and call it “ Hachi-shi no geijutsu“ or something. (Art of eight limbs in Japanese). Make your own art, you’ve got the experience to do it. They’ll all start as white belts so you’ll only need to know the first part of your program anyways

 

[shincheckin]

so put them all in the gi. It’s your class. Come up with structure to promote them for belts and call it “ Hachi-shi no geijutsu“ or something. (Art of eight limbs in Japanese). Make your own art, you’ve got the experience to do it. They’ll all start as white belts so you’ll only need to know the first part of your program anyways

ill probably do something similar. but call it kenkarentae lol. Yeah i get it. I just dont want to kid myself that I can put another 20 years into karate. I also dont enjoy getting shitted on for liking a TMA most of the world shits on. I was hoping actually fighting in it, and the fact that kyokushin is so similar to MT, that I might be able to make up for the lack of time available to train it, through fighting it. Now that I am a old fart. point karate matches seem like they would be very fun.

Pad combinations by the TBA seem like a good ranking system over kata.

 

[DoctorTaco]

ill probably do something similar. but call it kenkarentae lol. Yeah i get it. I just dont want to kid myself that I can put another 20 years into karate. I also dont enjoy getting shitted on for liking a TMA most of the world shits on. I was hoping actually fighting in it, and the fact that kyokushin is so similar to MT, that I might be able to make up for the lack of time available to train it, through fighting it. Now that I am a old fart. point karate matches seem like they would be very fun.

Pad combinations by the TBA seem like a good ranking system over kata.

do it! You’ll be a good coach regardless

 

[aerius]

Problem solved.

 

[JohnPJones]

didn't mean to start this all over again lol. damn my bad shin.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

didn't mean to start this all over again lol. damn my bad shin.

you didn't actually bring it up in fairness, dw 'bout it

 

[JohnPJones]

you didn't actually bring it up in fairness, dw 'bout it

i thought i mentioned something about it like 2 or 3 pages ago lol