So we've got an Alliance Black Belt coming to Judo now

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by RJ Green, Oct 7, 2010.

  1. RJ Green

    RJ Green Black Belt

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    He's absolutely solid, and humble to boot. Very, very nice guy.

    I've played randori with him a few times, but only got the chance to roll on Tuesday. I've seen him playing a lot of spider guard and butterfly guard, and he always, always hits the x-guard sweep when people try standing.


    What the...I mean...

    What the hell do you guys do against someone who knows everything you're going to do? I admire the hell out of him for not throughly tooling me but I can't ever see having the upper hand on a slow roll. I don't want to resort to oomph and speed for gym wins, I won't learn shit.

    I also don't want to pull guard and spend time fending him off.


    I guess I run into this problem in standup- most people won't attack me because they're worried about the counter-throw, but it's not doing them any favors waiting to be tossed around. It gets to where I'm taking falls for 'meh' throws, if only to give them an appreciation for what a throw feels like.

    You guys that have rolled with the elite players, what do you do? Is it just time to banzai? Get owned and learn in retrospect? Practice fundamentals even if neither of you advance?
     
  2. akharon

    akharon Blue Belt

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    Yes and YES to the last two. You have a fantastic opportunity to improve your ground game, so just work on your fundamentals. He's still going to walk right through you, but you'll have the opportunity to ask him what you can do better, and he'll likely have some very good tips for you.
     
  3. brackis1

    brackis1 Gold Belt Platinum Member

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    Being tooled less and less is improvement!
     
  4. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    If I'm understanding this right, the question is how should you grapple with someone who is a lot more skilled than you are?

    I say don't hold back. Try to beat him. You will get owned, but just try to learn from it as much as you can and not make the same mistake twice or let him catch you the same way twice.
     
  5. RJ Green

    RJ Green Black Belt

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    more of "should i be concerned with keeping base and posture at the expense of advancing position and submission"

    i mean, if i keep things slow and steady i can hang and keep myself out of danger, but i don't want it to be a stalemate, i owe him more than that as my partner.
     
  6. mtruitt76

    mtruitt76 Purple Belt

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    Always try to advance your position. If you just hang back and play as safe as possible you will not learn nearly as much. You are probably going to lose every time you try to advance your position, but you will learn much more from the roll and you game will see more improvement.
     
  7. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    It kind of depends on what he does. If he wants to attack, you're probably not going to get much of a chance to because you'll be too busy defending and trying to survive. But in randori a lot of BJJ guys, instead of constantly attacking, will kind of pause for a sec and let you do something (or bait you into doing something) so they can counterattack. Even when there is a large skill disparity, allowing a little back-and-forth and some positional changes makes the roll a lot more enjoyable and educational for both guys.

    I think you should attack as much as you're able to. When he's in guard, don't just try not to get swept. Try to pass his guard. When you're in guard, don't just try to not to get passed. Try to sweep or submit him. Don't try to stalemate, try to win.
     
  8. brackis1

    brackis1 Gold Belt Platinum Member

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    Think about it like a brilliant teacher in a curricular subject.
    Sure you can probably get a better grade or get away with small mistakes with a crappy professor, but you will never know more than what a crappy professor knows. If you take a course with a brilliant professor who grades you down when he catches your mistakes you may suffer in the short term, but you will slowly approach the level of the professor as time goes on!

    Now would you ask the professor to teach you things you can lookup on wikipedia or learn at community college? No way jose. Push your comfort zone.
     
  9. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

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    Just pass the guard.

    I hate training with someone that just stay in the guard and are more concerned of "not losing" (keeping base and posture) than taking a risk and attempting to pass.
     
  10. sanuces

    sanuces Orange Belt

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    i agree with what everyone else is saying. try to beat him. its just training. besides, he's probably gonna be trying to advance his position on you the whole roll. you might as well do the same. at least then there are learning opportunities for you. if you sit back and play it safe, youre gonna suck just as much as you did before the roll.
     
  11. mweaver123

    mweaver123 Yellow Belt

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    You should throw him as hard as possible from standing...and hope for a KO from the fall...then run. :icon_lol:
     
  12. RJ Green

    RJ Green Black Belt

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    he's going to be epic from standing in about 2 months. haven't met a nicer guy, either.
     
  13. judogido

    judogido Aussie!, Aussie!, Aussie! ...

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    You have to find his "achilles heel".

    I know, I know ... he's a black-belt. However - that doesn't mean in judo newaza he's going to have all the answers. I know plenty of BJJ guys who would not do as well in judo newaza simply because they are BJJ-focused and ,,, for example ... their guard can be passed too easily. This matters less in BJJ but in judo it is a problem.

    So if he likes to play an open, loose type of guard close it in and tighten it up. Control the legs .. I dunno - just try to experiment and find something he is less comfortable with and attack that.

    Will it work? Probably not - but hey - it'll force you to think and tighten up your ground game. Man, I'd be looking for every opportunity to roll with the guy! Have fun!!!
     
  14. ShanghaiBJJ

    ShanghaiBJJ Brown Belt

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    Huh??
     
  15. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    I think he might be referring to how a lot of BJJ guys, if their guard is being passed, seem to prefer to stay on their backs and accept side control rather than going to their knees and turtling, because in BJJ they have time to work from under side control and escape (and they really don't want to give up back control), but in Judo being held in side control for 25 seconds loses you the match and there's less risk in turtling because the ref will stand you up.

    IMHO this is the biggest difference between Judo newaza and BJJ newaza. Judoka turtle to avoid being pinned, while Jiu-Jiteiros would rather give up side control than risk giving up back control.
     
  16. ShanghaiBJJ

    ShanghaiBJJ Brown Belt

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    Well I know all that.... but how anyone could say it is easier to pass a BJJers guard than a Judokas is a little.... huh?

    Once you get past the guard I agree that it would probably be easier to pin a BJJer than a Judoka for sure.
     
  17. Thaiboxer10000

    Thaiboxer10000 Purple Belt

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    practice tapping.
     
  18. judogido

    judogido Aussie!, Aussie!, Aussie! ...

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    No - sorry, I think I phrased that wrong, so you misunderstand me. Redaxe explained exactly my gist. I'm not saying BJJers guards are easier to pass than judokas in general - as a rule it is quite the opposite. It's that SOME BJJers have a style of guard that they employ that is more open to passing.

    BJJ'ers are generally more relaxed about having their guards passed. When I started, I had to learn not to "panic" - for lack of a better term - when I ended up getting passed to sidemount and just remain calm and just work hip escape. Hard habit to break when for years you have trained to buck like a bronco and turtle/pancake the instant your guard is passed.

    You have to remember, in judo - the pin IS the end of the match - not just points or a position to work subs from. So you CAN'T relax, be calm and take time to be technical - you have to GTFO.

    So basically playing a style where you have a more open, loose guard because you can attack from there MIGHT not suit judo as much if it means an increased risk of ending up in sidemount/mount - where a judoka will clamp on like a freaking barnacle and crush you for 25 seconds (which is all it takes to win a match).

    I find it MUCH easier to pass BJJers to sidemount/mount than judoka. One reason is also that after passing, a BJJer will generally let you get to sidemount and then hip escape, get back to half-guard - whereas a judoka will buck like heck and turtle - which you will very rarely see a BJJer do.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2010
  19. Jdonw

    Jdonw Green Belt

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    You won't get those gym wins even if you do resort to oomph and speed.
     
  20. Freezing Winds**

    Freezing Winds** Green Belt

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    sorry still not getting this. who in bjj does not try their best to not let their guard get passed?

    who is just gonna let you get side control or mount? that is kinda not true at all.

    while true there is no pin, but a pass is points.

    i mean, you have closed guard > open guard > half guard progression all to stop the pass.

    I think it would be a hard argument that any style has better guard than bjj and would have to think that they would have the hardest guard to pass.
     

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