So let me get this straight, Jones is suspected of PED use now?

[SnapTheLankyGuy]

Because of all the "mistakes" and "accidents" the NSAC and UFC have done with this story, I honestly think Jon is going to get away with very minimal punishment. That is unless his post fight test results come back horrible.

LOL I think the opposite, because with coke PLUS suspicious levels of test, he should be severely punished

 

[Bryan teh Retar]

High ratios are most of the time an automatic failure unless there is a reaosn to do CIR and hardly any athlete demands CIR if he fails the ratio thing because he knows he would fail.
I don't think there's a strict rule for when to use CIR it's simply used if something looks shady and in this case it does so they have no excuse not to do CIR

No they say so in the research where they define the ranges, you can find the link in my post history (very useful article)
The strict rule = T/E >4. The rest is to expensive to do. I'll try to find it for you

EDIT: found it
http://pilarmartinescudero.es/bibli...e 2B17, the major enzyme for testosterone.pdf

The determination of the 13C/12C ratio of selected steroids (IRMS analysis) provides the possibility to distinguish between pharmaceutical and natural testosterone because exogenous compounds contain less 13C than their endogenous homologues(29). However, the analytical facilities and costs required preclude any routine use of this methodology for screening in the anti-doping testing. Therefore its major use is to confirm suspected doping in samples with T/E ratios equal or greater than 4.

Actually not sure what the other uses are; but they say that low T/E are something they actually should be testing for, except it's too expensive (cause you rarely had guys popping for PEDs with a low T/E I guess)

 

[strawberry]

Yeah you're spot on. It's hard to know who are informed and who are not though, I apologise for the tone. The ratio is inadequate though, low ratio's should be added as an indicator for CIR testing (I think)

No apology necessary- there's a lot going on right now and it's definitely worth reminding people that a low ratio doesn't get flagged under the current system. My two biggest questions are:

- what were his post-fight results?
- was there, or was there not a blood test administered on the 18th? Jon's FB page alluded to a blood test. All we've seen is a urinalysis.

Also- why not perform CIR tests on his samples from December now? They should still be stored and frozen at the lab. CIR results would tell us exactly what we need to know.

 

[PrinceOfPain]

As soon as as he failed that out of competition drug test, you just knew the dam was gonna bust wide open with people turning over every rock looking in every crack to find something else, something more, something to destroy him.

Strange species we humans the only animals that take pleasure in someone else's suffering.

First off, you don't know that we're the only species that takes pleasure in someone else's suffering. Unless no other species takes pleasure in anything; which you also don't know, and even if you did, it would reduce your point to meaninglessness.
I think dolphins are pretty douchey actually. Probably monkeys too.

Secondly, would you rather people ignored signs of criminality?

When you got definite proof of PED's you let us all know until then this is nothing more than TMZ like speculation.

No one will find definite proof if no one looks. It's unlikely that anyone on Sherdog will find such proof, but laymen need to be asking questions and staying interested for the experts to have the motivation to care themselves.

 

[FlexBelt]

Heres the thing,they screwed up his testing.Thats not even disputable.

They tested for things they shouldn't have.who is to say they did the correct testing on his testorone etc?that his samples weren't tainted by be left in in proper conditions.

What time were the tests taken?had he just been working out? all these things change your levels.

Could he be cycling on and off substances? yes of course,and if all these fighters who aren't champions are on drugs,why aren't they champions?

More then likely the champs are on more stuff then anyone else.

Agreed. Since the AD messed up the testing, everything else will be likely be pushed under the rug. Unfortunate because everyone deserves to know if he's been using PEDs.

 

[Bryan teh Retar]

No apology necessary- there's a lot going on right now and it's definitely worth reminding people that a low ratio doesn't get flagged under the current system. My two biggest questions are:

- what were his post-fight results?
- was there, or was there not a blood test administered on the 18th? Jon's FB page alluded to a blood test. All we've seen is a urinalysis.

Also- why not perform CIR tests on his samples from December now? They should still be stored and frozen at the lab. CIR results would tell us exactly what we need to know.

Yes that is the whole issue, you got it. I don't want to speculate on reasons, but I have a strong feeling they're going to try and sweep this under the rug. This would essentially mean you might as well have no drug testing at all, cause everybody can now just add E and pass the test (or maybe this is exactly what fighters have been doing all the time).

The post fight results wlil be very interesting;

• Is his E still enormously high? Or has it dropped significantly?
• How are his T values?
• How do the values affect his new ratio?

 

[ConorMcGreGOAT]

Heres the thing,they screwed up his testing.Thats not even disputable.

They tested for things they shouldn't have.who is to say they did the correct testing on his testorone etc?that his samples weren't tainted by be left in in proper conditions.

What time were the tests taken?had he just been working out? all these things change your levels.

Could he be cycling on and off substances? yes of course,and if all these fighters who aren't champions are on drugs,why aren't they champions?

More then likely the champs are on more stuff then anyone else.

Can't tell if troll or Joe Silva. Beat it, Joe!

 

[rush61]

Yes. It is questionable. However, I've also read that cocaine can cause low testosterone levels. I'd like to see an expert address that.

Cocaine kills my dick

 

[strawberry]

The post fight results wlil be very interesting;

• Is his E still enormously high? Or has it dropped significantly?
• How are his T values?
• How do the values affect his new ratio?

If, in the post-fight test, his E has dropped back down towards normal levels, that would actually be the most damning piece of evidence against Jon. Would pretty much rule out everything but the use of exogenous epitestosterone in his earlier tests.

 

[freelanzr]

I think most of the informed people here are aware that T/E ratio doesn't get flagged for being low. This isn't about the ratio itself so much as the ridiculously high epitestosterone levels, though.

It is the low T:E ratio that is of most concern, as the T and E levels for Urine test are unreliable. These are not blood test results. The ratios are reliable, and so abnormal, that it is a legit health concern, but not used as proof of elevated T levels. The variation in levels are also suspect. The high E Level is suspect, but unreliable. All consistent with masking attempts.
Bottom line is CIR testing is warranted

 

[ib313]

 

[dc007]

His levels heavily indicate that he was coming off a cycle, there is no other valid explanation for it.
Not really confusing. The coke story is the cover, the sample for further testing will probably be lost, and all the mainstream media will focus on is the party drug, not the high chance that he's been on PEDs for most of his career.

Actually in one of the opinions I read stated that they only did a urine test not blood and depending on what time of day they did it, earlier or later, that could have lowered his levels based on the condition of his body at the time.

The problem is people like you are chomping at the bit to bury the guy and don't need any facts to do so. I'd like to see more information before making up my mind and preferably not from reddit as a source.

 

[Bryan teh Retar]

If, in the post-fight test, his E has dropped back down towards normal levels, that would actually be the most damning piece of evidence against Jon. Would pretty much rule out everything but the use of exogenous epitestosterone in his earlier tests.

Yeah he would be fucked if E turns out low.

Let's just say his E comes back high again:
What would be a reason for his E being so high all the time and even increasing so much in two weeks? The only reason other than illness would be genetics I guess, which is just weird. The UGT2b17 (something like that) catalyst causes T to be metabolised faster, so you get less T in the urine, but this doesn't account for his insane urine-E values. In that research in all persons both the T and the E dropped (causing T/E ratio's of ~ 0.4), but in Jones case his T increases a little while his E increases enormously.

I can't seem to find any explanation for this, you got any ideas?

 

[strawberry]

It is the low T:E ratio that is of most concern, as the T and E levels for Urine test are unreliable. These are not blood test results. The ratios are reliable, and so abnormal, that it is a legit health concern, but not used as proof of elevated T levels. The variation in levels are also suspect. The high E Level is suspect, but unreliable. All consistent with masking attempts.
Bottom line is CIR testing is warranted

Absolutely, CIR tests are warranted. Speaking of blood tests: Jon posted video of the AC drawing blood from him on Instagram back on the 18th of December: http://instagram.com/p/wwRh1_MDCn/?utm_source=partner&utm_medium=embed&utm_campaign=video&modal=true

Where are the results? The only results we see from the 18th are from a urinalysis. Why?

 

[freelanzr]

Actually not sure what the other uses are; but they say that low T/E are something they actually should be testing for, except it's too expensive (cause you rarely had guys popping for PEDs with a low T/E I guess)

Unlike elevated T levels, Elevated E levels are of no benefit, which is why the flag is for high T:E ratio.
If one is trying to correct the ratio to hide the elevated T levels, and do so improperly, this could cause high E levels, but low T:E ratios. This is why potential masking agent (E, epi-test) is suspected.

 

[strawberry]

Yeah he would be fucked if E turns out low.

Let's just say his E comes back high again:
What would be a reason for his E being so high all the time and even increasing so much in two weeks? The only reason other than illness would be genetics I guess, which is just weird. The UGT2b17 (something like that) catalyst causes T to be metabolised faster, so you get less T in the urine, but this doesn't account for his insane urine-E values. In that research in all persons both the T and the E dropped (causing T/E ratio's of ~ 0.4), but in Jones case his T increases a little while his E increases enormously.

I can't seem to find any explanation for this, you got any ideas?

Illness, genetic disorder and disease are the only remotely plausible explanations that I know of. I'm not a doctor, though. Just a random dude that's done some reading on this over the years.

Thing is- it's not our job to be figuring this out. That's what the regulatory body is for. If there's not enough competence and/or funding available to properly test the fighters and keep the sport clean, then we need to drop the pretense of testing altogether. It does little good to catch some of the offenders some of the time.

 

[snw10mm]

Because of all the "mistakes" and "accidents" the NSAC and UFC have done with this story, I honestly think Jon is going to get away with very minimal punishment. That is unless his post fight test results come back horrible.

can somebody tell me if post-test fights are definitely pending?

 

[snw10mm]

Actually in one of the opinions I read stated that they only did a urine test not blood and depending on what time of day they did it, earlier or later, that could have lowered his levels based on the condition of his body at the time.

The problem is people like you are chomping at the bit to bury the guy and don't need any facts to do so. I'd like to see more information before making up my mind and preferably not from reddit as a source.

He's doing a good job at burying himself. He has failed to show discretion or control with two other substances (alcohol and cocaine). Is it a stretch of the imagination that he would abuse another drug?

 

[Paynebringer]

First off, you don't know that we're the only species that takes pleasure in someone else's suffering. Unless no other species takes pleasure in anything; which you also don't know, and even if you did, it would reduce your point to meaninglessness.
I think dolphins are pretty douchey actually. Probably monkeys too.

Secondly, would you rather people ignored signs of criminality?



No one will find definite proof if no one looks. It's unlikely that anyone on Sherdog will find such proof, but laymen need to be asking questions and staying interested for the experts to have the motivation to care themselves.

You stay the path man, and fight the good fight and when you got something concrete you come back and call me out.