Snatch vs Clean

dza76wutang

dza76wutang

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I'm helping my brother lift weights to put on some size for basketball next season with the idea that some extra mass and power will help him lock in the center position (which isn't really deep) as opposed to being another forward (of which there are like 6 candidates). Anyway, I have always been a huge fan of snatches for over all power and explosiveness, but also because they are easier to teach/learn than cleans.

Is there a need or reason to force power cleans into the routine or are snatches going to be sufficient? I figure the weight handled may be less, but why stop at chest level when basketball entails so much "arms over your head" work? Are cleans that different from snatches?
 
dza76wutang said:
Just clean off the floor to chin/chest level. I mean I could add the press wrinkle, but for now the question is coventional clean vs snatch.
Click to expand...

Why don't you want to teach the catch? If it's because it's unnecessary technique, the snatch is much more technical than a clean.
 
If you don't want to do the clean and press then why not do both power cleans and snatch. Alternate between the two.

I'd guess the reasons for power clean over snatch are basically that it's easier to learn, requires less flexibility, and you can move more weight. If any of those are a factor then consider doing more power cleans.

joshetc said:
I like snatch
Click to expand...

There's always room for more snatch.
 
Dza, I think you should teach him the clean if you can. I agree that the snatch is a little easier to teach and learn, so I say go ahead and teach him the snatch - then use that technical foundation as a basis for teaching him the clean. The snatch alone is certainly better than no OLs at all, but I think both the snatch and the clean are essential to a serious athlete's repertoire.

IMHO, the arms-up receiving position of the snatch does not necessarily translate into basketball-specific strength. I think the difference between snatches and cleans is significant enough to necessitate teaching him both, but if you only could teach him one, I'd suggest you make it the clean.

Nothing I know of matches the clean for developing raw, explosive power over a full range of motion. Because the weights handled in the clean are greater than in the snatch, the clean has a higher potential for power development. Ultimately I think a ball player, especially a young one new to weight training, might see more benefit from raw power development than from a similar exercise that only requires 80% of that power production.

Since the snatch also employs the triple extension, there are many of the same benefits, but the lift is more technical, so it's a little less about raw, explosive power and a little more about timing and control. However, that technique has a variety of useful applications (e.g. absorbing impact, body control, timing the application of force, balance, core strength). Hence training both the OLs will produce the best benefits.

Disclaimer time: I'm just a guy who's been strength training for about 3 years and doing the OLs for the last two. I'm not any good at either, but I enjoy both immensely and have read up a bit on them. I'm not any kind of coach and I don't know much about sport-specific applications. However, I will say that I just went to the driving range yesterday after a 2-year layoff from golf, and I put 15-30 yards on all my clubs, and I got a few drives over the 250-yard fence.

I'm curious to know what kind of program you'll have him on and how it goes. Best of luck to you and your brother.
 
oxcart said:
Why don't you want to teach the catch? If it's because it's unnecessary technique, the snatch is much more technical than a clean.
Click to expand...

Well I've always found the snatch easier to perform and teach than the clean. The catch at the top has always been problematic for me to do, and if I can't do it, I can't teach it.

I'm not saying my snatch technique is olympic level, but my former coach/trainer was always "Umm WTF" at my affinity for the snatch but my suckitude at the clean. So given your question I think the best way to phrase my inquiry is now:

Given that both my brother and I have picked up the snatch relatively nicely, from a programming POV, is the return on investment for shoe-horning the clean into the overall routine there? To supplement that question, does clean + press eliminate the need for the simple clean? Seeing as how he is brand new to weights, I wanted to use Push Press, Squat, Deadlift and Snatch as the 4 core movements of his routine and sprinkle in other stuff around them.
 
why would you want to compare full snatch to a clean only?
 
What are his strength levels like? You might be wasting your time with the weightlifting if he doesn't have a strength base to supercharge.
 
Gross Ass said:
Dza, I think you should teach him the clean if you can. I agree that the snatch is a little easier to teach and learn, so I say go ahead and teach him the snatch - then use that technical foundation as a basis for teaching him the clean. The snatch alone is certainly better than no OLs at all, but I think both the snatch and the clean are essential to a serious athlete's repertoire.

IMHO, the arms-up receiving position of the snatch does not necessarily translate into basketball-specific strength. I think the difference between snatches and cleans is significant enough to necessitate teaching him both, but if you only could teach him one, I'd suggest you make it the clean.

Nothing I know of matches the clean for developing raw, explosive power over a full range of motion. Because the weights handled in the clean are greater than in the snatch, the clean has a higher potential for power development. Ultimately I think a ball player, especially a young one new to weight training, might see more benefit from raw power development than from a similar exercise that only requires 80% of that power production.

Since the snatch also employs the triple extension, there are many of the same benefits, but the lift is more technical, so it's a little less about raw, explosive power and a little more about timing and control. However, that technique has a variety of useful applications (e.g. absorbing impact, body control, timing the application of force, balance, core strength). Hence training both the OLs will produce the best benefits.

Disclaimer time: I'm just a guy who's been strength training for about 3 years and doing the OLs for the last two. I'm not any good at either, but I enjoy both immensely and have read up a bit on them. I'm not any kind of coach and I don't know much about sport-specific applications. However, I will say that I just went to the driving range yesterday after a 2-year layoff from golf, and I put 15-30 yards on all my clubs, and I got a few drives over the 250-yard fence.

I'm curious to know what kind of program you'll have him on and how it goes. Best of luck to you and your brother.
Click to expand...

This is a gem of a response, as it gets right to what I was concerned with, namely, comparing the two and then providing perspective on the larger ROM of the snatch vs the higher weight of the clean.

Right now his routine is to the tune of:
Day A: Squat - Snatch - minor lifts (stuff like arms, calves, pecs, etc this is getting filled in as he learns more movements)
Day B: Deadlift - Push Press - minor lifts

And I have him do days A and B 2x a week, I was going to attempt more, but he's also playing basketball something like 2+ hours per day so burn out is a concern I have for him. The programming will get more sophisticated as he gets more experience, right now I just want to keep him banging on the 4 primaries and make sure he's protecting himself from injuries in the weight room. He's literally starting from nothing so I want to tread lightly. He prefers dumbbell snatches to barbell snatches but other than that he's being very coachable.

Notably absent is bench pressing, which is sure to draw the ire of some big-3 proponents. I'm staunchly in the school of thought that the bench is not worth it for him. I'm anti-bench due to shoulder blow-outs in HS and College, but given the relative scarcity of horizontal pressing in basketball versus the overhead nature of the game I think the ROI is maximized if he cultivates powerful shoulders and back, as almost all of the "curves" he needs to be strong through are not in the transverse plane.

Exercises I plan to inject into the programming:
Bent Over Row
Stiff Legged Deadlift
Dips
Lunges
Grip Work
Calf Work
Core Work

EDIT:
Jim - I don't understand your question, he's lifting to get stronger, who cares where he's starting from the goal is to increase it.

Josh - As a lifting veteran I value the Olympic lifts, as a former personal trainer I found the snatch easier to teach. The question is more "Am I hampering his progress by using snatch as the only OL" rather than "can we compare and contrast the snatch and clean"? Or more bluntly, are cleans "teh uberz" and I'm missing something in my pro-snatch bias?
 
My point is that cleans aren't the whole lift. If you're comparing snatch vs clean it is an unfair comparison.

If you are comparing snatch vs clean and jerk the answer should definitely be that you need to teach both. Cleans on their own are in all likely-hood inferior to full snatches.
 
I occaisionally workout with a guy who plays basketball, at a christian school noone's ever heard of, although i dont agree with him on 75% of his lifting theories (he's a crossfitter) he is still pretty intelligent. He said that powercleans have helped him tremendously(spelling), but so have snatches. Why not both?

For basketball, i would have some kind of explosive movement every workout. Assuming that he works out 3 days a week, I would do it like this: snatch do as a warm up on DL day. When you first start snatching, form is holding you back not strength, and i doubt it will effect his DL numbers. Do clean and jerk on a non-bench day. do hang or powercleans on a bench day.

Also, what is more important for him, getting big or being fast and explosive?
 
dza76wutang said:
I'm helping my brother lift weights to put on some size...

some extra mass and power ...

power and explosiveness ...

Is there a need or reason to force power cleans into the routine or are snatches going to be sufficient?
Click to expand...

You reference gaining both size and power (not that the two are mutual exclusive). It might help to clarify your goals a bit. If you were forced to choose (again, not saying you have to), is the goal to make him more of a physical presence in the paint or is it to increase athletic performance (jumping, explosiveness, speed, etc.)? The lifting emphasis would differ depending on the answer. For example: if size is the primary goal, you almost certainly should including benching in the workout plan.

On the question of cleans vs. snatches: if the catch is problematic, high pulls are another option.
 
I disagree that the snatch is easier to learn. It is way more technical than the clean. If I had to pick one to help him train for athletics it would be the clean. You are able to load more weight on the clean which should be more beneficial to developing strength for athletics.
 
psschwei said:
You reference gaining both size and power (not that the two are mutual exclusive). It might help to clarify your goals a bit. If you were forced to choose (again, not saying you have to), is the goal to make him more of a physical presence in the paint or is it to increase athletic performance (jumping, explosiveness, speed, etc.)? The lifting emphasis would differ depending on the answer. For example: if size is the primary goal, you almost certainly should including benching in the workout plan.

On the question of cleans vs. snatches: if the catch is problematic, high pulls are another option.
Click to expand...

Well the size is more of a fringe benefit to the strength. I know that hypertrophy and power training have different programming needs, but if I had to pick one it'd be the extra strength. I'm pretty confident lifting + extra food will thicken him up so he can bang in the paint, he's not trying to become an offensive tackle after all.

Given the consensus here, I think I'll work in clean + press.
 
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