Shooting: dropping to a knee vs. not

[stephensharp]

Paul, I think that dropping onto the knee is actually a faster smoother movement if you perform it properly. If you don't drop to a knee (MMA), 1. chances are that you are not low enough 2. you are gonna telegraph your movement 3. you're gonna take a few punches to the face for not dropping your level. 4. If you look down, you have a high possibility of getting kneed than if you did a wrestling shot. If you don't drop to a knee (grappling), 1. you telegraph your movement, 2. your center of gravity is high and you will get countered by a good fighter, 3. your balance is hindered.

Dropping to "one knee" is the correct way to shoot. The reason I put quotations around it is because when you "drop to one knee", that knee should only be on the ground for a split second as you explode forward. It gives you the proper level, doesn't jeopardize your balance, gives you a focused forward explosion, and allows for ankle picks and lifts.

+1.

And the guillotine is actually more of a danger with the "spear tackle" shot being discussed, as with a proper "one knee" shot, you keep your back straight and your head up, which protects against the guillotine. The pro wrestling/bull charge tackle is just asking for a choke to be sunk, to be rolled over by anyone with even minimum grappling knowledge, or any other number of defenses.

I think more people would throw a Gomi vs. Ralph knee to the face on the high shot than going for a sprawl. I'd rather risk getting sprawled on then kneed in the grill, and with proper technique, the knee is going to be less effective and just throw off his balance. You should be shooting with your hands up and close, not reaching anyway, so you should wind up taking the knee on your triceps and chest at worst, and taking him down, whereas with the Mark Coleman on Mirko shot, you're just running at the guy with your head down, and you'll get stuffed, kneed, uppoercutted... It'll be a bad day.

Best takedowns in MMA are guys like Kerr and Sakuraba... They shoot right to the heel, and they go to one or both knees with a bit of a twist.

 

[colinm]

isnt it also going to depend on the takedown you're attempting? low singles almost require you to go down to both knees, no? while you can almost just reach down and pick up a regular single from a loose over under clinch.

and +1 for kdawg as well, nice post.

 

[pitviper259]

I disagree your disagreement. If you shoot and you are too low, its far too easy to get in a cow catcher position from your opponent. If your shoulder is in their waist, then you are also in prime position to get your head locked in the guys arm > guillotine.

I would agree that it is easier to get a 2-point with the ankles than behind the knees, but as you say, in an MMA situation, being that low will def have you eating a knee. being a little bit higher means you eat less knee, and may just catch it to the body instead of the face. Also going for the ankle means the opponent can lift one foot out, take a step back and nullify the take down. if you go for behind the knees, if the opponent tries to step back, you will catch his ankles instead.

I can see why one knee would be better in a wrestling situation, because bending at the knees very low is not as stable as putting one knee down in case your opponent goes to shoot you at the same time.

Hey bro i was simply explaining for wrestling and actually agreed with your explanation about the mma shot. One thing you may be forgetting is that in wrestling (and only wrestling not sub grappling or anything else) the guillotine is not used because it is illegal in wrestling the lower the shot, the easier to finish

 

[monkey roll]

dropping the knee does not invite a knee to the face. You can get knee to the face without dropping the knee aswell.
And the thing about jumping out of the way of the knee, BS!

 

[RuleOfSteel2]

In both mma and wrestling, I wanted to hear others' perspectives on what the pros and cons are of shooting and dropping to a knee vs. not doing so. I'm mainly interested in shooting related to mma, but would also like to hear the wrestling aspect.

In aspect to wrestling, dropping to a knee is used to change levels. Because of the crouched stances in freestyle & folkstyle, you need to get low, under your opponent's head to attack his legs and this is accomplished by dropping to your knee (lowering your level).
If your opponent is standing more upright, as in mma or just in a poor grappling stance, you don't need to drop as low.

I normally advised (as well as many other more qualified coaches) against shooting to your knee. What you really should do is drop your level and take a penetration shot and the focus of your shot should be several feet behind your opponent so you drive through him. Most of the time when a wrestler shoots to his knee he just shots straight down and stops himself, when you do this you lose an advantage because now you have to start your drive again and against an opponent that has had time to adjust.

Now sometimes you will end up shooting to a knee, you just can't avoid it, and when you do the key is to not sit there and give your opponent time. You want to switch off to a single, try to come upto a bodylock or backout. The longer you sit there the better for your opponent, especially in mma because of the strikes.

As above posters have posted, a lower shot hits your opponent's ankles/calves and keeps him from sprawling out on you. Now, if your opponent is in an upright stance he can't sprawl as well so you don't need the super low shot (the reason wrestling coaches harp "keep in your stance").

If you aren't comfortable you can shot for the hips & upper thighs, called a "high dive". Matt Hughes & Matt Lindland have used that shot often in mma. Same movement as a double leg, you just attack higher up.
The move is popular in olympic style wrestling because of scoring counters to lower shots can't be used. The drop to a knee is prevalent in american folkstyle wrestling points aren't score until control is established, so those olympic style counters generally don't score any points.

 

[paulchu]

Hey bro i was simply explaining for wrestling and actually agreed with your explanation about the mma shot. One thing you may be forgetting is that in wrestling (and only wrestling not sub grappling or anything else) the guillotine is not used because it is illegal in wrestling the lower the shot, the easier to finish

You're absolutely right...

 

[praetor6]

Don't drop to a knee! Thou shalt be kilt if thou droppeth to thine knee!

 

[Kforcer]

you better shoot and penerate with the knee unless you plan on lifting and slamming.

 

[teamvovchanchyn]

A. Prevents proper sprawling
B. Gives a good, low, level
C. Gives a solid base to work from if sprawled on

To add to this dropping to a knee helps technique by almost forcing you to keep your head vertical, lessening your chanches of being caught in a guillotine.

 

[Kforcer]

In aspect to wrestling, dropping to a knee is used to change levels. Because of the crouched stances in freestyle & folkstyle, you need to get low, under your opponent's head to attack his legs and this is accomplished by dropping to your knee (lowering your level).
If your opponent is standing more upright, as in mma or just in a poor grappling stance, you don't need to drop as low.

I normally advised (as well as many other more qualified coaches) against shooting to your knee. What you really should do is drop your level and take a penetration shot and the focus of your shot should be several feet behind your opponent so you drive through him. Most of the time when a wrestler shoots to his knee he just shots straight down and stops himself, when you do this you lose an advantage because now you have to start your drive again and against an opponent that has had time to adjust.

Now sometimes you will end up shooting to a knee, you just can't avoid it, and when you do the key is to not sit there and give your opponent time. You want to switch off to a single, try to come upto a bodylock or backout. The longer you sit there the better for your opponent, especially in mma because of the strikes.

As above posters have posted, a lower shot hits your opponent's ankles/calves and keeps him from sprawling out on you. Now, if your opponent is in an upright stance he can't sprawl as well so you don't need the super low shot (the reason wrestling coaches harp "keep in your stance").

If you aren't comfortable you can shot for the hips & upper thighs, called a "high dive". Matt Hughes & Matt Lindland have used that shot often in mma. Same movement as a double leg, you just attack higher up.
The move is popular in olympic style wrestling because of scoring counters to lower shots can't be used. The drop to a knee is prevalent in american folkstyle wrestling points aren't score until control is established, so those olympic style counters generally don't score any points.

I think the key is PENETRATING with your knee if you are gonna shoot to a knee...don't look at is as dropping to a knee, but as penetrating with it.

 

[gracie_barra**]

Definately go to one knee. If you don't its higher chances of telegraphing your shoot and/or taking a knee to the face.

 

[mepersoner]

Snatch Double Leg is a fine shot and you don't need to go to your knee. Most other shots you should naturally go to one knee, but there's no need to force it.

As for the guillotine etc. Really depends on if you're more worried about the Guillotine or being KTFO. Shooting in with your head up in the air can get you hit, and shooting with your head down can get you caught in a guillotine, your choice.

 

[tudor_bjj]

Don't drop to your knee if you train for self defense, too. You'll fight on a hard, scratchy surface (most of the time). How many of us train for getting in an MMA ring, cage?