Sherbros, help me select a topic

The stark decline of art music over the course of the twentieth century as a symptom of unchecked free markets, big business, mass media, and an increasingly degenerate American culture (with each component feeding back into the others in a classic catch-22 sort of feedback loop).

Basically, at the start of the century we were throwing huge sums of money at guys like Mahler and Tuscanini (musical titans in the grande canon of western music) simply to even conduct a few seasons at the Met and these men were lauded and treasured as the great cultural icons of the time. Composers like Rachmaninoff and Stravinsky as well, were among the musical aristocracy of the age.

Now the de facto musical aristocracy consists of Beyonce, Bono, JayZ, and the like and if a piece of music runs longer than 4 minutes the audience starts yawning and rolling their eyes, their attention is lost.

Art music is not entirely dead, but it's not remotely in the public consciousness at this point; in fact, it's more often a completely foreign oddity to the majority at this point. There are no more titans of music - the Mahlers and Wagners of the early 20th century are not to be found. The emergence of cinema in some ways seems to have supplanted the idea of the major musical work of the past - whether a symphony or opera or similar such epic work (and it is of note that most of our "cultural heros" of this age are usually movie stars and directors as opposed to the writers, painters, and composers of the earlier part of the century).

So what happened over the past century to arrive at this point? And why did it happen? Will the music of the present age be remembered by posterity hundreds of years from now and studied in universities as the masters of the past have? (of course, I would suggest that it won't)

This is a subject I might attempt to tackle (and probably fail miserably, lol) were it my assignment.
 
theres a reason why i said i'd read your ska paper. the other topics are interesting, sure... but they've been written about to death. i have no idea how ska got so big yet faded so fast here in america. i'd read your skapaper, wouldn't read the others. i think its a good topic that hasn't been beaten to death. also, mention the save ferris song "spam". they wrote a song about spam, the meat, and called it spam. i'd read a paper based on that song alone
 
EyeTrainUFC said:
It would have to be on how British heavy metal affected American music, as it's a survey of american music class. I would go with the swing thing. It baffled me how swing was in again for a year there, not because I think swing sucks but because I'm surprised it caught on mainstream.
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Well that shouldn't be too difficult.

Iron Maiden and Judas Priest influenced essentially every 80s American metal band, i'd imagine.

Thrash metal was born in California, painted itself into a corner, the biggest rep of it (arguably) Metallica branched out into more "mainstream" stylings and consequently lost a lot of their old fanbase, begging the question "stay in your wheelhouse and keep small group of followers or branch out and risk losing everything but for larger gains?"

Plus there is the social aspect of "tribes" of fans of differing bands and i'd wager a sudden economic boom for the denim and leather industries :D


All that been said, I imagine the doo-wop one has more potential for information than the ska one, just based on how big it was in the 50s.

Just go with whatever interests you the most.
 
Johnny -

why wouldnt jay-z and beyonce be considered "titans of music" who have created art music?

i dont necessarily disagree with you, but wouldnt music fall into the "subjective" trap? were movies in the 50's better than today, or the actors of that era?

you make an interesting point, but im not sure it holds water objectively.
 
+99 for WUB WUB WUB




or





UTZ UTZ UTZ UTZ UTZ UTZ













































































potato chips
 
How bout how the fall of USSR set up & brought a new movement to music and the revolution of punk rock such as greenday
 
random nerd said:
Johnny -

why wouldnt jay-z and beyonce be considered "titans of music" who have created art music?

i dont necessarily disagree with you, but wouldnt music fall into the "subjective" trap? were movies in the 50's better than today, or the actors of that era?

you make an interesting point, but im not sure it holds water objectively.
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Hi there,

JayZ and Beyonce are great if one is into their genres of popular music and I don't want this to be a put-down. But to compare their work with that of a Gustav Mahler or J. S. Bach would be unequivocally, undeniably an absurdity. The incredibly rich structure and emotional depth of such composers of this caliber cannot be overstated. Western music has structure just like any other system and can be very intellectual as well as emotional.

A composer like Bach created some of the most complex and richly textured music as is possible in the tonal system and basically wrote the book on harmony, voice-leading, and counterpoint. When a student goes to university to study music and takes their first advanced harmony or counterpoint class, invariably they'll start (and end) with one of Bach's chorals as first point of study. In fact, if you can write a credible analysis of one of Bach's fugues, you can basically can pick your PhD in music composition on the way out the door. So we're talking of composers of that magnitude when we speak of art music.

That's not to say pop artists' music is inferior, but in terms of structure and musical architecture (music, believe it or not, is highly mathematical) it would really be like comparing the great cathedrals of renaissance europe to mud huts and that's not an exaggeration. A typical JayZ or Beyonce (or similar pop music artist) song will consist of two or three chords (usually not even that), a simple drum beat, and a bassline. And it's usually written for them by a high-profile producer whose co-opted for millions of dollars. Again this is not to knock them, I dig a lot of pop music, but it is very much a low-brow endeavor.

On the other hand, just to give you an idea of the complexity we're dealing with here, a typical piece by Bach goes something like this (a snippet of a musical analysis by Joel Lester of Bach's fugue from Violin Sonata in G Minor BWV 1001):

....Scale-step 4 is absent from the exposition of the G-minor Fuga because its most unusual subject will not allow an answer in the dominant key. The dominant is, of course, the usual key of a fugal answer, largely because it establishes the tonic
 
How about how music recording shifted peoples' ability to appreciate music?
 
Not gonna quote you, Johnny, because that would take up the whole page again :)

The points you outlined re Classical/Art music vs pop music show just why people still play Beethoven, Bach et al to this day. The complexity and, well beauty of the pieces make them very difficult to master but open enough that one could build on them, improv around them or arrange them for other instruments.

I can't imagine that in 100 or even 50 years the majority of pop songs will still be played, short of any that make a large cultural impact, due to their simplicity and the fact that they are largely "of their time" as in featuring large numbers of pop culture references.

But therein lies the argument. Is a piece of music judged solely on it's musical merits, or is there an X factor, if you'll pardon the phrase that helps it resonate on some deep level with the listener?

I'll gladly listen to Mozart and feel some deep emotions, but i'll often get the same kind of reaction from Rage Against The Machine, because the primal protest nature of their works speaks to me on a more conscious level.

I know musically they're incomparable, but they both "speak to me"

Your post certainly didn't put me to sleep :)

If you don't mind me asking, where did you study music? What kind of background did you need prior to enrolling?

EDIT: RE your earlier post, about Art music not being in the public consciousness, or however you put it, Andre Rieu seems to be carving out a nice little niche for himself marketing Classical to the masses, if his shows on Sky Arts showing him in concert before larger crowds in Holland, Mexico and Germany are anything to go by. Even if at times it does resemble a big pub sing-along :)
 
Johnny you know your shit. what's your view on groups that actually use a live band when recording rather than the beat being all computer generated ala the roots?
 
Sanshou Kid said:
Not gonna quote you, Johnny, because that would take up the whole page again :)

The points you outlined re Classical/Art music vs pop music show just why people still play Beethoven, Bach et al to this day. The complexity and, well beauty of the pieces make them very difficult to master but open enough that one could build on them, improv around them or arrange them for other instruments.

I can't imagine that in 100 or even 50 years the majority of pop songs will still be played, short of any that make a large cultural impact, due to their simplicity and the fact that they are largely "of their time" as in featuring large numbers of pop culture references.

But therein lies the argument. Is a piece of music judged solely on it's musical merits, or is there an X factor, if you'll pardon the phrase that helps it resonate on some deep level with the listener?

I'll gladly listen to Mozart and feel some deep emotions, but i'll often get the same kind of reaction from Rage Against The Machine, because the primal protest nature of their works speaks to me on a more conscious level.

I know musically they're incomparable, but they both "speak to me"

Your post certainly didn't put me to sleep :)

If you don't mind me asking, where did you study music? What kind of background did you need prior to enrolling?

EDIT: RE your earlier post, about Art music not being in the public consciousness, or however you put it, Andre Rieu seems to be carving out a nice little niche for himself marketing Classical to the masses, if his shows on Sky Arts showing him in concert before larger crowds in Holland, Mexico and Germany are anything to go by. Even if at times it does resemble a big pub sing-along :)
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Yeah, I dig what you're saying here. Here's the thing, we are men after all and men that are into mma at that, so those often times primal emotions that are at the core of all men's DNA and have been for 150K+ years sit well with angsty, aggressive music; I can certainly relate to that. I didn't come from a musical family so for me, when I was a 12 year old kid I knew next to nothing about classical music and my introduction to music was through the bands at the time my friends were listening to - Soundgarden, The Pixies, Nirvana and the like. But tastes can progress (well change) rapidly for those who become truly hooked by music; my God, it seems at times that I've gone through just about every musical phase there is in my explorations.

I played woodwinds in high school and at university I studied music as a performance major (guitar) for two years taking some woodwinds, composition, and harmony classes before I switched majors over to mathematics and computer science; I realized what incredible time had to be dedicated towards practice for a guy that didn't have the 10+ years of formal study under his belt like many of the other majors did and I also realized what paltry money most music major graduates could expect to make. I still play guitar (electric and classical) as a hobby though (not so much for the saxophone, sigh); in fact, most of my free time lately is spent practicing Bach's lute suites (an enriching experience I can assure you). You see the beauty of education is that one is able to step out of that box - wherein only the most primitive, necessary, but often banal of man's desires are cultivated - that most people are trapped in and discover knowledge, logic and reason and then be open to the great intellectual of achievements of many of the great minds of the past. Now that one is open to their work, because he has the training to understand it and has been pointed in the direction, his/her spirit is elevated by it and good art thereby becomes a sort of life companion.

Like, for me, one of the biggest moments in this regard was when I first heard Mahler's 2nd Symphony which happened to be live in a concert hall. Fucking EPIC does not even begin to capture the experience; Mahler put forth through sheer sounds and pitches alone, basically the whole human experience - from the most guttural lows to the most soaring highs and just about everything in-between. These guys of this caliber were epochs in mankinds' thinking and artistic achievement much like Gauss for mathematics or Einstein for physics or Kant for philosophy. Big minds and they were aiming high. (Btw, I would highly recommend getting a copy of Mahler's 2nd and giving the 5th movement a listen - but do it right, a good sound system or headphones and crank that shit up LOUD.)

Ok, enough rambling. Bottom line, it's like you said, one can appreciate different musics for different reasons; I'm totally with that. Also, I should clarify that when I said "the public consciousness" I was referring to the American public in particular. I can't say how strongly the classics still resonate within the minds of other countries/cultures, mostly 'cause I don't live there and I'm not around those people (I would imagine it's quite strong in Germany though, for a great bulk of the great composers seemed to be of German origin). Cheers.
 
do it on the interpretation and reinterpretation of Canon in D in popular music
 
CardonaLJ said:
Johnny you know your shit. what's your view on groups that actually use a live band when recording rather than the beat being all computer generated ala the roots?
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I went through a phase years back where I was deeply into hip-hop, I mean I was completely infatuated with it, especially with the less commercial stuff around the early to mid 90's before it had fully become mass marketed and targeted towards mainstream consumption (although I liked a lot of decidedly more commercial rap music as well, even JayZ). I certainly don't live by some sort of mantra that says "only music played on live instruments is good." That era of hip-hop coming out of the late 80's totally captured the zeitgeist of an entire subculture within that generation much like the punk movement in late 70's or post-punk in the 80's eighties for a subculture of people in the UK so it has a historical importance as well. They expressed their struggles, joys, and worldviews with the particular immediate mechanisms they had at hand - turntables and mics for the former, guitars, amps, and distortion boxes for the latter.

Also, I've always loved a lot of folk type music - guys like Bert Jansch, Nick Drake, and, of course, Dylan - and post bebop jazz - the Coltranes, Parkers, and Shorters - so any hip-hop group like The Roots who attempt to preserve the culture and vibe of hip-hop in it's purist form while transplanting a kind of jazzy folk aesthetic on top of it (with the live instruments) is tops in my book. So I think I get what they were going for and hold a lot of respect for them and, moreover, dig the tunes I've heard from them to date.

But alas, I must confess that at this point in my life what was once for me an intense romance with hip-hop has over the years slowly mellowed considerably and faded into the background of my musical interests. At this point, I know little to nothing of the current underground hip-hop scene or if one even exists
 
CardonaLJ said:
Johnny you know your shit. what's your view on groups that actually use a live band when recording rather than the beat being all computer generated ala the roots?
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Another good topic. You could probably do an entire paper on just the Roland TR-808 and it's huge influence on the production of music.

roland_tr808_lg.jpg
 
I'd do a paper on the rampant rape of black musicians' material for a white audience by the record industry from the early 20's up through the 70's. Start with the most appalling abuses that you can find, but eventually work your way to Elvis; he is the most significant artist on that landscape and a controversial subject because of how much music he "stole" from black people. To complicate things, somehow tie that into the rise of the widespread use of "sampling" of music in the 80's through today with (primarily) hiphop that is ironically spearheaded by primarily African-American musicians; quote some music execs and musicians to see what they think of the latter, and maybe get into a philosophical musing on the difference between theft and homage in the music world.

That is one juicy paper for a music prof. You're delving into the history of record label abusing the individual artist's rights, race relations, intellectual property, the philosophical boundaries of "authorship"...professors eat this shit up.
 
Johnny_Mo said:
Also, I've always loved a lot of folk type music - guys like Bert Jansch, Nick Drake, and, of course, Dylan - and post bebop jazz - the Coltranes, Parkers, and Shorters - so any hip-hop group like The Roots who attempt to preserve the culture and vibe of hip-hop in it's purist form while transplanting a kind of jazzy folk aesthetic on top of it (with the live instruments) is tops in my book. So I think I get what they were going for and hold a lot of respect for them and, moreover, dig the tunes I've heard from them to date.
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A-fucking-men. IMO, that is true "hip-hop". Most of the other stuff I hear is just "rap" to me. It lacks the jazz or the funk or the blues influence in melody and instrumentation underlayering the vocal track that really makes the music interesting. The Roots are the greatest hiphop band ever, IMO. I love stuff like A Tribe Called Quest. That is hiphop to me.

I was listening to Undun the other day on spotify. "Make My" is a freaking incredible track. Check it out if you haven't heard it.
 
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