Elections Senator Warren proposes new Wealth Tax to fund her "free college" and student loan cancellation plan

[panamaican]

I saw you post about humanities after I had posted.

My point about the college grads working production jobs is that they didnt need college to be prepared for this job and they work it because it pays more than their degrees will bring in the market (minus the engineer we have).

Btw- I dont think its a critique of hs or college grads; probably more about saturated degrees and pay structures of most jobs. If this plant closed the college grad is in a better position - if it doesnt the grad wasted 80k.

But it's not an issue about saturated degrees. As I pointed out, if the college grad and the non-college grad are competing for the same job, the college degree has the better chance of landing the job. The unemployment rate for non-college grads is 2x the rate for the college grads. Sure, once they have the job, they're making the same money but they're not getting job at the same rate as the college grad, even if it's not major related.

And I think that's relevant. The college degree is still providing an economic advantage in the job market. Is it better to spend the $80k and get an unrelated job or not spend the $80k and lose out on the job to someone who did? Flesh that out over time and the $80k is definitely worth it.

And the reason you have so many people with college degrees taking these jobs is because, as I pointed out, as many people graduate with college degrees now ans graduated with HS diplomas in the 40s and 50's. It is the new HS diploma. Back then, sure you could land a job without a HS diploma and I'm sure plenty of people did and then turned to the guy next to them and said "Why'd you bother finishing school, we're both here working the same job?" But then 10 years later, they'd look at who got promoted and who didn't and realize that the HS diploma guys got more chances than they did, just like the college grad guys are going to get more shots at management now.

 

[Krallang]

Were working the problem all wrong, mandatory 2 years of civil service for all americans and higher education becomes a basic right. You'd spend 2 years working what we consider a state or federal job etc then go to college or maybe you go to college then work as a civil engineer etc...

Starship Troopers style.

 

[TeTe]

I think she called for a wealth tax. That said, I always wonder how you actually implement a wealth tax.

Technically, the government has all of that wealth information because you're reporting interest on your bank accounts and your stock holdings are SEC info. Housing is a little trickier but if you've got a mortgage, the government probably has that info too. Ownership interests in LLC and other such entities are in your tax info.

So the headache is putting it all together to get a wealth picture of an individual/family. But presumably you only deal with that once. Updating it annually is easy.

Plus, you'd probably get a bunch of help from people themselves. If it was me, I'd overvalue the assets of the people and then give them a chance to prove me wrong. While establishing that my number is too high, they'll divulge figures that are a better representation of their true wealth.

As for how they pay it, I think it's very possible to hold their holdings hostage. We already do it for people who are delinquent with income tax. The process is there.

Honestly, the US could not build ten F-35's and fund public universities for years. Or at least cover half of the amount she's calling for. This country is wealthy enough where we could cut and reallocate spending and we wouldn't have to add taxes.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

The ironic thing is the numbers say that humanities majors do just fine in terms of job prospects and earning. On average, they make just as much as business majors.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/08/the-humanities-face-a-crisisof-confidence/567565/

According to Money, a humanity degree is wrth about 46k.

http://money.com/money/collection-p...-the-average-grad-makes-right-out-of-college/

 

[TeTe]

Why not both.

If you want to empower, not just employ, the lower and middle class then they need a broader grasp of the humanities, not a smaller one. They need a real breadth of philosophical thought as it applies to humanity and their place within it.

Nothing says that you can't teach the trades right alongside the humanities. But I'm not saying that you shouldn't teach the trades, I'm saying that the humanities are important to cultural development in way that no other subject matter accomplishes.

They get shitted on because people think about them solely in the context of their employment prospects relative to the cost of college. But that's a narrow and inappropriate way to think about them. On a forum where we constantly debate intellectual and philosophical points that relate to our government and our responsibilities as people towards each other, it is the arguments that arise from the humanities that drive the debate from both the left and the right. We're not on here debating STEM philosophies or trade philosophies. We're debating the philosophies behind the humanities. We should be educating our populace, both left and right, so that they can actually have those debates.

The trades are hurting because they aren't stressed enough at the high school level. Schools cut funding for shop classes because they want to allocate all of their resources towards kids passing standardized testing.... as if all kids need to go to college.

Trades are hurting for employees so much now that they actually recruit in prisons now and will hire regardless of background. It's a good place to look for prospective employees too because inmates have more access to trades like welding and HVAC in prison than people that aren't in prison.

 

[franklinstower]

Elizabeth Warren releases sweeping student debt cancellation and free college plan by taxing the rich
By MJ Lee and Katie Lobosco, CNN | April 22, 2019













https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/22/poli...-student-debt-college-tuition-plan/index.html

Sounds good to me. More educated people in the workforce means more tax base and a better society. In the long run this helps the economy, not hurts it.

Give this a few generations and America would be killing it in the world economy, happier and more successful overall.

 

[franklinstower]

double post

 

[DangDaGawd]

According to Money, a humanity degree is wrth about 46k.

http://money.com/money/collection-p...-the-average-grad-makes-right-out-of-college/

Right out of college is kind of a slanted view imo. Look at what they make, in addition to right out of college, at year 5, 10, and 20 of their careers.

Many humanity majors pursue graduate degrees as well.

 

[Teppodama]

As the push for more and more automation comes into play how much of a push for education do think there will be? Throw in a potential for self-repairing or even self-programming AI and the pool of advanced jobs becomes smaller. If you were one of the 1% what is more advantageous to your bottom line, a moderately educated populous that's easily controlled, paid minimum and not educated enough to organize against obsolescence or one that is educated enough to actively seek economic balance and develop strategies to achieve better parity?

One way to do that is a BLS to ease the competitive pressure for better paying jobs through advanced education. The more money you're given, the less pressure to "earn", the less pressure to "earn" the less pressure to work, the less pressure to work the less pressure to develop beyond the group baseline to advance and achieve.

 

[cincymma79]

Honestly, you consistently concern me with the superficial analysis you bring to stuff because I'm 90% certain you're smarter than that. Rather than discuss a problem with the actual proposal, we're doing the slippery slope thing. It's worthless.

Why have an income tax? It won't stop at XX%, we all know that. One day, they'll tax income at 100%
Why have a speed limit? It won't stop at XX mph, we all know that. One day, they won't let us drive more than 5 mph.
Why have a military budget? It won't stop at $XX, we all know that. One day, the entire budget will be for the military.

That's the slippery slope fallacy. That some suggested thing shouldn't be considered because of some unnamed, illogical outcome that might arise after some undetermined future amount of time.

If you have a problem with the proposal, lay out the problems with the proposal and not the fantastical slippery slope.

I’m typing between tasks at work so sometimes you jsut get what you get.

But here’s my first issue

We know it will just be the next thing they fuck up and it’ll get down to me since I’m in the 5%.

But let’s go with student loans
Median income is 60
Interest rate is say 5%
Degree costs 50
So total costs of that degree is 75 on a ten year note
Person is going to work 40 years most likely
So let’s assume no raises at all ever and always 60
40x60=2.4 million
How much extra tax am I going to have to pay to get my degree for free?
1% is 24000
3% is about break even and that not counting the other 30 years where you’re not making payments and investing that money
Take that payment of 625 and invest in And there’s your retirement

So wtf are we solving for here

 

[nostradumbass]

Why not both.

Lol, Seabass and the fellas offered to pick up our check, and add these on there too. Having free everything is an ongoing expense and you can only jack someone's net worth once, unless you're suggesting doing that every year in addition to all the other taxes and assume they aren't going to hide it or leave. If their money is tied up in assets and investments, should they have to start selling their stuff to pay these extra taxes?

Especially public colleges, I have no idea why the price of colleges just continues to skyrocket as they do.

The loans. These kids get 20 year loans in amounts for which they would never qualify for anything else that are gov't backed with no defaulting. They aren't losing "customers" from raising the costs so there is no reason for them not to continue adding more high paid administrators and overpriced gyms with rock climbing walls and sushi restaurants.

I've said capping the amount and making it a 5 year loan would make them have to control costs or lose customers.

 

[panamaican]

The trades are hurting because they aren't stressed enough at the high school level. Schools cut funding for shop classes because they want to allocate all of their resources towards kids passing standardized testing.... as if all kids need to go to college.

Trades are hurting for employees so much now that they actually recruit in prisons now and will hire regardless of background. It's a good place to look for prospective employees too because inmates have more access to trades like welding and HVAC in prison than people that aren't in prison.

Definitely agree, the trades need more attention.

Something I wish I understood better was about access to unions and how that works in the modern era.

 

[panamaican]

Lol, Seabass and the fellas offered to pick up our check, and add these on there too. Having free everything is an ongoing expense and you can only jack someone's net worth once, unless you're suggesting doing that every year in addition to all the other taxes and assume they aren't going to hide it or leave. If their money is tied up in assets and investments, should they have to start selling their stuff to pay these extra taxes?

Yes. Sell stuff to pay taxes. It's surprisingly common when discussing larger assets pools. You see it in estates when they have to pay estate taxes. You see it in divorces when they're allocating assets between spouses. You see it in real estate businesses when they have unexpected tax hits. Smart people will simply keep 2% of their wealth in easily liquidated assets.

And if you're wealthy enough to fall under the purview of this proposed tax, you already have extremely competent accountants pre-planning all of this for you.

Also hiding wealth is a lot harder than hiding income, unless you're talking about keeping cash under your mattress. Pretty much every institution is tied together from a reporting standpoint these days. Almost every asset class you can buy is registered with some government agency somewhere.

 

[hillelslovak87]

FREE SHIT!!!!

Vote Democrat!

It's pathetic.

Tell me about your tax cut.......

 

[panamaican]

I’m typing between tasks at work so sometimes you jsut get what you get.

But here’s my first issue

We know it will just be the next thing they fuck up and it’ll get down to me since I’m in the 5%.

But let’s go with student loans
Median income is 60
Interest rate is say 5%
Degree costs 50
So total costs of that degree is 75 on a ten year note
Person is going to work 40 years most likely
So let’s assume no raises at all ever and always 60
40x60=2.4 million
How much extra tax am I going to have to pay to get my degree for free?
1% is 24000
3% is about break even and that not counting the other 30 years where you’re not making payments and investing that money
Take that payment of 625 and invest in And there’s your retirement

So wtf are we solving for here

How much extra tax? Probably less than it would have cost you to get the degree since it's going to be spread out over your life and offset by the contributions of the rest of the working world, particularly the extremely wealthy.

As for your math argument, you're missing some important information: None of your $60k income comes close to bringing you into the $50 million tax window so it's not going to cost you anything...until that moment that you hit the lottery or use your $50k degree to land a job that catapults you into the $50 million wealth window.

I don't know what you do for a living but I doubt you're worth $50MM, you'd have mentioned it by now, lol.

 

[hillelslovak87]

I saw this on Reddit this morning in MurderedByWords. It has about 54k upvotes.

Imagine being so clueless and entitled that you would compare a contract that a consenting adult WILLINGLY entered into... to a fucking plague. It's just mind boggling.

So I don't blame Warren for coming out with all this dumb shit because there are TONS of "ME ME ME GIMME GIMME GIMME" babies out there who don't see the need or value in a grown adult repaying their debts. Keep the promises coming, it obviously resonates with the weaker of our society.

Maybe don't seek out stupid shit on stupid places like reddit or faceboob?

 

[PainIsLIfe]

Right out of college is kind of a slanted view imo. Look at what they make, in addition to right out of college, at year 5, 10, and 20 of their careers.

Many humanity majors pursue graduate degrees as well.

Well they compared it to right out of college for the other degrees so seems fair to me.

Besides how many of those degrees end up teaching? Not a really a lot you can do with an English or History degree

 

[Whippy McGee]

Tell me about your tax cut.......

You really don't understand taxes do you? I paid over $70K in taxes for 2018 and you want to talk about my "cut". I live in Huntington Beach, CA I pay for at least a family of 4 to live in the United States in my taxes alone.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

gotta love those ideas that the poor denizens love, but the rich people who actually run shit will never vote for

That being said, would be great if it happened

 

[hillelslovak87]

You really don't understand taxes do you? I paid over $70K in taxes for 2018 and you want to talk about my "cut". I live in Huntington Beach, CA I pay for at least a family of 4 to live in the United States in my taxes alone.

Over your head, that went.