Screw Monoschools!

[Jimmy Cerra]

The "I hate jiu jitsu politics" thread got me thinking. Why would any martial arts instructor limit their students to learning under him or her? I say: Screw that kind of respect!

I would never be friends with anyone who limited whom I could also associate with. You are paying for the training; they aren't paying for you to learn BJJ. And in business jiu jitsu is not a trade secret or non-disclosure agreement. So I don't worry about attending different schools.

As for competitions, I'll officially fight for who has taught me more. In the end it is quite meaningless, as you should compete for yourself and noone else just like in wrestling. However, and the next tournament things will be interesting. I intend to enter the gi division for one school, who exclusively roll with kimonos on, and the no-gi division for a different one, who exclusively roll without kimonos.

 

[greasemonkey]

Well, one of the best feelings for me is after a tournament and i get in the top 3, I see my name and my schools name on the results page on some website. So even if nobody knows who the hell i am with just my name, they know what school I came from. Just a sense of pride for my school I guess.

 

[infamous mattyd]

I don't know what it is, but I feel loyalty to my team

 

[shankshanks]

Frodo:
I feel the exact same way. I feel that the more you do jiu jitsu, the more you improve. There shouldn't be restraints upon which school your "allowed" to go to. I think its stupid. Money gets in the way of everything. If you represent a club, and you win, more people join that club, the club gets more $$$. I just read Roy Harris's training experiences with the Gracie's. Even though i think the article consisted of a little bit of reverse psychology, Roy Harris at that time was just a guy who loved to grapple, and simply wanted to get better at it. If all those accounts were true, I truly feel sorry for the guy.

Heres the link in case anyone hasn't come across it yet.

http://members.aol.com/bjj33/harrishistory.html

 

[infamous mattyd]

very interesting, but there ios 2 sides to every story

 

[Balto]

Training with other instructors is not a big deal. I would never train with an instructor who acted like it was.

Nobody in martial arts is the best at every aspect. Even in just the grappling subset, there are different areas to excel in. One instructor might be superb at sweeping from the guard but not quite as good at passing. Another instructor could be the reverse. There is nothing wrong with learning from both.

Also, teaching styles differ. Even if two instructors are both equally skilled at a technique (say the armbar), the ways in which they teach the technique will be different. Hearing it two different ways only speeds up the learning process.

Many someone will show me a "new" move that they learned somewhere else. I think it's funny because I usually taught them the exact same move a few weeks ago. It is just that the other instructor explained it from a different perspective or concentrated on a different detail that just made the move click more.

Training exclusively with a single instructor is bad for your martial arts health. Just look at the founders of major systems like Judo or Aikido. Both trained with multiple instructors when they were young, and both ended up being legendary martial artists.

 

[colinm]

first off, im assuming you're talking about two bjj schools in the same town, in a situation where you could easily choose one or the other. i dont think any bjj instructor in their right mind would be upset about you training another different art on the side, or bjj at a different academy in a different city.

anyway, if i were one of your instructors i wouldnt teach you shit. why would i show you my bread and butter, tournament tested moves when you'll turn around and use that knowledge against the guys from my team at the next tournament? of course its about building an academy and gaining students...these guys teach martial arts for a living, and that means they need to make money. you win more tournaments, gain more prestige, and your academy grows...its that simple, and retaining students is essential to this while teaching the moves your students use in competition to their competitors is obviously detrimental

and im not sure what you're getting at with wrestlers competing for themselves and not representing a team. high school and collegiate wrestlers obvioulsy represent and train exclusively with a team during the season, in the olympics you represent the ____olympic team...not sure about the worlds, but you're still representing your country, if not your country's national team.

 

[Gsoares2***]

I don't know what it is, but I feel loyalty to my team

same here.. its just about loyalty..

 

[Jimmy Cerra]

Many someone will show me a "new" move that they learned somewhere else. I think it's funny because I usually taught them the exact same move a few weeks ago. It is just that the other instructor explained it from a different perspective or concentrated on a different detail that just made the move click more.

LOL! You crack me up! I don't annoy you I hope... :redface:

 

[Cornsloth]

There is team loyalty, but more for me is the team-mate loyalty. When I step out on the mat with those guys I know all of them are there for me, that they want me to win as much as they themselves want to win. I wouldn't hang out with one school for awhile then see them in a tournament and feel okay with competing against them.

 

[Jimmy Cerra]

anyway, if i were one of your instructors i wouldnt teach you shit. why would i show you my bread and butter, tournament tested moves when you'll turn around and use that knowledge against the guys from my team at the next tournament? of course its about building an academy and gaining students...these guys teach martial arts for a living, and that means they need to make money. you win more tournaments, gain more prestige, and your academy grows...its that simple, and retaining students is essential to this while teaching the moves your students use in competition to their competitors is obviously detrimental

Grappling is a science. Yes: knowledge of the sport evolves, and there are new moves created all the time. However, most of the effective moves have been found and are widely available. What could you hold back that I couldn't learn somewhere else? I go to several places to learn the non-tangibles and to fill gaps in my knowledge; those are hard to keep to yourself.

Granted, I am a white belt with only 6.5 months instruction so far. However right now I don't see what I can gain from going to just one place. Besides everywhere I train is a group setting except for one place (and I don't think he minds showing me his "bread and butter" as you put it). So if they didn't show me one move, they wouldn't be showing their other students!

Besides, holding stuff back is being a jerk and a breach of ethics. If someone pays you for training and you don't give it anywhere nearly your best for the reasons that you suggested, then you could be sued for breach of contract (unless it says you can't go to other places). Of course, I'm speculating and I am not a lawyer. Balto would know better.

and im not sure what you're getting at with wrestlers competing for themselves and not representing a team. high school and collegiate wrestlers obvioulsy represent and train exclusively with a team during the season, in the olympics you represent the ____olympic team...not sure about the worlds, but you're still representing your country, if not your country's national team.

That's a different situation. Wrestlers hardly ever pay to train at a particular high school or college (indeed, at college they often give scholarships to wrestle for them). Some schools offer extra off-season training and camps; however, they never discriminate against wrestlers from other schools in my experience! In fact, several high schools in my area often let wrestlers from other high schools practice with them during the state tournaments if they didn't have anyone else go past sectionals!

 

[Jimmy Cerra]

There is team loyalty, but more for me is the team-mate loyalty. When I step out on the mat with those guys I know all of them are there for me, that they want me to win as much as they themselves want to win. I wouldn't hang out with one school for awhile then see them in a tournament and feel okay with competing against them.

I'm strange. I like fighting my friends because then it is more fun and we both go harder than usual! When I see teammates from two different schools grappling against each other, I cheer both of them. Hell I cheer for the people who beat me at competitions even if I wasn't in that particular one!

The only problem is when I have to decide who to fight for. At the last tournament, it was easy given everyone who showed up and that it was no-gi only. The next one is much more complicated; therefore, I'll also all my instructors what they think. However, I'd let all the schools take credit if they want to if (when ) I place.

 

[jadizm]

Couldnt agree more with Frodo and Balto

 

[jadizm]

training with multiple instructors will widen your knowledge...sticking to a single routine is what might make you not as good.

 

[colinm]

Grappling is a science. Yes: knowledge of the sport evolves, and there are new moves created all the time. However, most of the effective moves have been found and are widely available. What could you hold back that I couldn't learn somewhere else? I go to several places to learn the non-tangibles and to fill gaps in my knowledge; those are hard to keep to yourself.

Granted, I am a white belt with only 6.5 months instruction so far. However right now I don't see what I can gain from going to just one place. Besides everywhere I train is a group setting except for one place (and I don't think he minds showing me his "bread and butter" as you put it). So if they didn't show me one move, they wouldn't be showing their other students!

Besides, holding stuff back is being a jerk and a breach of ethics. If someone pays you for training and you don't give it anywhere nearly your best for the reasons that you suggested, then you could be sued for breach of contract (unless it says you can't go to other places). Of course, I'm speculating and I am not a lawyer. Balto would know better.

That's a different situation. Wrestlers hardly ever pay to train at a particular high school or college (indeed, at college they often give scholarships to wrestle for them). Some schools offer extra off-season training and camps; however, they never discriminate against wrestlers from other schools in my experience! In fact, several high schools in my area often let wrestlers from other high schools practice with them during the state tournaments if they didn't have anyone else go past sectionals!

i'm not trying to be condescending when i say that as a whitebelt you dont realize the depth of the art and the difference between academies - i dont either as a measly blue belt, but i may know a bit more - youre learning the basics. there is a huge difference between academies in terms of the moves they teach you, the positions they emphasize, the approach in general, etc. plus, im not just talking about the moves the instructor shows to the class, im talking about the moves higher ranking belts/your instructor shows to you and only you while rolling, the things he teaches you that apply directly to your game and fix your weak points. you need to build up cameraderie and friendship in order for that kind of shit to happen. its the difference between a black belt looking at you drill a move, seeing you are doing a grip wrong, and correcting it because he gives a shit or letting you go on your merry incorrect way (saying "close enough") because he doesnt give a shit. its also the difference between asking a blackbelt a question and getting a 1 sentence verbal answer or getting 15 minutes of free private instruction on the mat. on a lesser note, i wont really help out some newb i dont recognize, but people i know ill explain anything they want me to because im friends with them and i care about their development and how they represent the team...thats what you'll miss by training at multiple academies.

im not exactly saying this is the best thing for you individual development, but its the way it is and there is valid reasoning behind it.

and this is kind of a moot point, but if you go to a wrestling camp, isnt it usually run by a neutral third party? i.e. x high school and z high school send their wrestlers to a camp run by y university? in my recollection, the wrestling team was a fucking cult, and although other wrestlers may have trained with them - i really dont know - i doubt they were showing those guys their go to takedown sequence.

 

[shankshanks]

i'm not trying to be condescending when i say that as a whitebelt you dont realize the depth of the art and the difference between academies - i dont either as a measly blue belt, but i may know a bit more - youre learning the basics. there is a huge difference between academies in terms of the moves they teach you, the positions they emphasize, the approach in general, etc. plus, im not just talking about the moves the instructor shows to the class, im talking about the moves higher ranking belts/your instructor shows to you and only you while rolling, the things he teaches you that apply directly to your game and fix your weak points. you need to build up cameraderie and friendship in order for that kind of shit to happen. its the difference between a black belt looking at you drill a move, seeing you are doing a grip wrong, and correcting it because he gives a shit or letting you go on your merry incorrect way (saying "close enough") because he doesnt give a shit. its also the difference between asking a blackbelt a question and getting a 1 sentence verbal answer or getting 15 minutes of free private instruction on the mat. on a lesser note, i wont really help out some newb i dont recognize, but people i know ill explain anything they want me to because im friends with them and i care about their development and how they represent the team...thats what you'll miss by training at multiple academies.

im not exactly saying this is the best thing for you individual development, but its the way it is and there is valid reasoning behind it.

and this is kind of a moot point, but if you go to a wrestling camp, isnt it usually run by a neutral third party? i.e. x high school and z high school send their wrestlers to a camp run by y university? in my recollection, the wrestling team was a fucking cult, and although other wrestlers may have trained with them - i really dont know - i doubt they were showing those guys their go to takedown sequence.

That is the kind of stuff I frown upon because jiu jitsu is already a world wide art. Everyone who is a die hard mixed martial arts fan or a die hard jiu jitsu fan are always talking about the two sports going mainstream. How do people expect that to happen when you only teach your friends and nobody else? I understand the team loyalty subject and how your not suppose to share knowledge with the enemy, however if the guy isn't going to compete (which i've already decided not to) then what harm can be done? No offense, and I respect your opinion, but this kind of mentality holds back the sport of jiu jitsu.

 

[infamous mattyd]

It sounds immature but a team is a team, and there needs to be some solidarity...can't have that whe you are training across town as well

 

[Oktavius**]

I feel the same way about a lot of things, i dont display any brand name stickers or shirts and am not into giving companys free advertising that they didnt pay me for. But your jui-jitsu club is a bit different, you fight with your whole team and go through hell during training so i cant see how you dont at least form a small bond or have some pride in your team.
But what ends up happening in a lot of clubs is higher rank students end up taking on the teachers responsabilities as if its expected. This sux i think because the same thing happens in the workplace, you start doing your managers job but dont get a pay rise, so its wrong in principal.
But all that counts is that YOU are enjoyng yourself, if you arent, somethings wrong.

 

[blanko]

That is the kind of stuff I frown upon because jiu jitsu is already a world wide art. Everyone who is a die hard mixed martial arts fan or a die hard jiu jitsu fan are always talking about the two sports going mainstream. How do people expect that to happen when you only teach your friends and nobody else? I understand the team loyalty subject and how your not suppose to share knowledge with the enemy, however if the guy isn't going to compete (which i've already decided not to) then what harm can be done? No offense, and I respect your opinion, but this kind of mentality holds back the sport of jiu jitsu.

this is true for all "sports" boxing, baseball, football all have things where coaches will only teach "their guys". Especially in baseball and pitching coaches... some coaches have grips and holds that are just perfect for some pitchers but won't show/tell them untill the ballclub signs them. This is normal.

 

[DonkeyKong]

It is pretty obvious.
A priori there is nothing wrong with training in different places: it is your money, your jiu jitsu and your life. However, complications stem from this such as "who will you represent in competition"?
Who will give you your belt? What if one teacher gives you a blue belt and another one doesn