SAMBO gets provisional Olympic recognition!

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

None of them are truly elite. I would guess the Miyaos would beat them all.

Says you?
Its simple- Miyao wouldnt be in the same bracket.
No absolute divisions in Olympics.

 

[yetanother]

Says you?
Its simple- Miyao wouldnt be in the same bracket.
No absolute divisions in Olympics.

The guys on that list wouldn't qualify to the Olympics even if BJJ where there.

 

[dsdoubled]

None of them are truly elite. I would guess the Miyaos would beat them all.

All of those guys have medals in the black belt division of tournaments like Brazilian Nationals, Mundials, Pan Ams, Etc. Madeiros has multiple golds. That is not considered elite in Bjj circles?

 

[dsdoubled]

Indeed.
The Mongolian national team has Olympic judo medalists, who also won SAMBO worlds and I know they also train wrestling.
Quick example, Ono (JAP) has been upping his submission game with Aoki for quite some time now.
How long do you think it will take him to adjust to BJJ?

Beslan Mudranov took silver at the 2007 sambo worlds. He just won Olympic gold in Rio!

For a guy like Ono, based on what you're saying, id guess he would adjust to Bjj quickly. Maybe a year or slightly more until hed be competitive with elite Bjjers in something like Grappling or MMA. Im sure itd take a little longer to be near the top of things like Mundials.

Its hard to say. Usually for wrestlers entering MMA (and to a lesser extent, Bjj) their development seems to be really quick up until the point they experience their 1st time getting caught in a nasty submission. After that they seem to slow down, take their time, and reall learn the intricacies of grappling.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

The guys on that list wouldn't qualify to the Olympics even if BJJ where there.

Thats up to the national championship, not a discussion in Sherdog.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Beslan Mudranov took silver at the 2007 sambo worlds. He just won Olympic gold in Rio!

For a guy like Ono, based on what you're saying, id guess he would adjust to Bjj quickly. Maybe a year or slightly more until hed be competitive with elite Bjjers in something like Grappling or MMA. Im sure itd take a little longer to be near the top of things like Mundials.

Its hard to say. Usually for wrestlers entering MMA (and to a lesser extent, Bjj) their development seems to be really quick up until the point they experience their 1st time getting caught in a nasty submission. After that they seem to slow down, take their time, and reall learn the intricacies of grappling.

Ono is fully prepared for SAMBO Olympics (he trains with JAP freestyle wrestling team as well, thanks to the updated strategy for the national Judo team, from their coach Inoue Kousei).
For BJJ, as I said, we have to consider the rule set.
It is impossible to have BJJ, the way that it is now, in the Olympics.
So, most probably his game will heavily be based on superior takedowns, leading to immediate pin and search for submission.
But as I said already, I prefer not to get involved in discussion of what the game plan of elite athlete would in case of... if...
Thats up to his coaches and the competition.
That been said, I am willing to bet on Ono, winning a gold medal at SAMBO or updated BJJ rule set in the Olympics.
F12 posters are really far distanced from the reality of Olympic level athletes.

 

[yetanother]

All of those guys have medals in the black belt division of tournaments like Brazilian Nationals, Mundials, Pan Ams, Etc. Madeiros has multiple golds. That is not considered elite in Bjj circles?

Google Madeiros and he hasn't win major tournaments. There isn't an official definition of elite but in BJJ there is a huge gap between the cream of the top guys who have recent wins in major tournaments or are multiple time world champions and people who are tough but get trashed by the elite. A lot less depth then in say wrestling. I you say don't have the answers to put up a fight against the best I don't count you as truly elite.

 

[yetanother]

F12 posters are really far distanced from the reality of Olympic level athletes.

I did train with a Greco medalist. Not really sure if he would win against the BJJ elite even if he had a decade to transition. I do feel you are assuming that elite level bjjers are just better versions of the physically and technically unprepared folks at your average BJJ club.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I did train with a Greco medalist. Not really sure if he would win against the BJJ elite even if he had a decade to transition. I do feel you are assuming that elite level bjjers are just better versions of the physically and technically unprepared folks at your average BJJ club.

You misunderstood the whole discussion.
Nobody says Greco guys will win in BJJ contest.
We are talking wrestling based YOUNG athletes, given 8 years of training, to win a Grappling contest.

 

[ijustwannasurf]

I think the prediction about Russia, Eastern Europe, and the Stans being dominant within a decade is spot on. The US has nothing compared to the national infrastructure and support available there.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I think the prediction about Russia, Eastern Europe, and the Stans being dominant within a decade is spot on. The US has nothing compared to the national infrastructure and support available there.

This.
I happen to organize training camps around the world for various grappling styles, MMA and some other combat sports (including Kyokushin Karate).
People very often got surprised by the intensity and technicality of basic concepts in the East.
Those are not some things I pull out of my ass.
I usually use studies and methodologies, based on scientific research on combat sports.
Example:
Weightlifting in Bulgaria and results, produced on Olympic level. (tons of scientific materials on the subject). Hence the results.
How many researches like those exist on BJJ?
Question:
Why would one think that just training certain technics would produce superior athlete, without the backup of entire methodology, producing Olympic champions?
Getting back to SAMBO, there are literally tons of materials, researched and agreed upon as best of methodology in coaching and strategies, in order of winning a medal in the SAMBO Worlds.

 

[Bluesbreaker]

Ono is fully prepared for SAMBO Olympics (he trains with JAP freestyle wrestling team as well, thanks to the updated strategy for the national Judo team, from their coach Inoue Kousei).
For BJJ, as I said, we have to consider the rule set.
It is impossible to have BJJ, the way that it is now, in the Olympics.
So, most probably his game will heavily be based on superior takedowns, leading to immediate pin and search for submission.
But as I said already, I prefer not to get involved in discussion of what the game plan of elite athlete would in case of... if...
Thats up to his coaches and the competition.
That been said, I am willing to bet on Ono, winning a gold medal at SAMBO or updated BJJ rule set in the Olympics.
F12 posters are really far distanced from the reality of Olympic level athletes.

What's the story to this?

 

[dsdoubled]

Ono is fully prepared for SAMBO Olympics (he trains with JAP freestyle wrestling team as well, thanks to the updated strategy for the national Judo team, from their coach Inoue Kousei).
For BJJ, as I said, we have to consider the rule set.
It is impossible to have BJJ, the way that it is now, in the Olympics.
So, most probably his game will heavily be based on superior takedowns, leading to immediate pin and search for submission.
But as I said already, I prefer not to get involved in discussion of what the game plan of elite athlete would in case of... if...
Thats up to his coaches and the competition.
That been said, I am willing to bet on Ono, winning a gold medal at SAMBO or updated BJJ rule set in the Olympics.
F12 posters are really far distanced from the reality of Olympic level athletes.

Back in 2006 USA Wrestling briefly brought back sombo for a while. These were the basic rules. Is this more or less what Olympic sambo will look like?


C. WINNING THE MATCH: A match can be won in one of three ways: (1) by Total Victory (a perfect throw or submission hold), which ends the match immediately, (2) by technical superiority (12 point difference in score), which ends the match immediately, or (3) by point difference at the end of the match if there has been no total victory or technical superiority (the athlete with the most points wins--no minimum point score required). Victory in a match with a tie score is determined by criteria including, sequentially, (1) most activity evaluations, (2) most technical points, (3) highest scoring technique or (4) last point scored.

D. ILLEGAL HOLDS: Holds not permitted in Sombo include (1) bending arms behind the back (hammerlock or chicken wing), (2) submission hold on shoulder, wrist, neck, fingers or toes, (3) Gripping the mat or the opponent below the belt or inside the sleeve, (4) twisting or squeezing the opponent's head, (5) pressure to the face, (5) twisting arms, legs, fingers, toes or ankles, (6) punching or slapping, (7) Driving the opponent's head in the mat, (7) standing or throwing submission holds, (8) gouging, (9) strangling or choke holds.

E. SCORING: Three types of technical moves will score points or result in Total Victory, as set forth below:

1. HOLD DOWN (Immobilization or Predicament): Similar to a judo hold down or a long wrestling near fall. One athlete must hold the back of the other athlete toward the mat in a danger position (less than 90 degrees), with chest, side or back in unbroken contact with the chest of the opponent to score. A hold down is "broken" when (1) Contact between the athletes is broken when space is created between them, or (2) the defending athlete turns over to the stomach or the side with and angle greater than 90 degrees. Only one hold down may only be scored in a match and will earn either 4 points for a twenty second hold down, or 2 points for a ten second hold down, or "A" for activity. Once a four point hold down is scored, an athlete cannot attempt another.

2. SUBMISSION HOLD: A pressure hold (arm or leg lock), applied to the arm or leg of the opponent which makes the opponent surrender or submit by calling our or tapping the mat at least twice (use limited in youth categories). Submission holds cannot be applied in standing position. A Submission hold ends the match by Total Victory.

3. THROW: A throw is scored anytime one athlete takes another to the mat in a single, continuous and uninterrupted action. A Sombo throw is more than a simple wrestling takedown, however. Like a Judo or Greco-Roman wrestling throw, (1) it must start with both athletes on the feet, (2) one athlete must unbalance the other, and (3) the attacker must take the opponent directly to the mat with one action without stopping. A throw must knock the defender off their feet either by lifting or tripping them, not merely dragging them down. A throw is scored based on two factors: (1) How the thrown athlete lands (on the back, side or front/buttocks) and (2) whether the thrower remains standing (the throw scores twice as much if the thrower stays up). A perfect throw results in Total Victory and stops the match if the attacker throws the defender to the back and remains standing. Other throws will score 4 points, 2 points, or 1 point, or with an "activity" note, depending on the impact point of the thrown athlete, as set forth in the chart below.

4. PASSIVITY: Passive wrestling will be consecutively penalized with a verbal caution, one point warning, two point warning, and disqualification

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

What's the story to this?

Google it.
Kosei Inoue is the current national Judo coach of Japan.
He is the first one the break the cycle of old school Japanese Judo training and recognizes the need of cross training and camps with foreign teams.
Example:
A friend of mine (Daniel Dichev, BUL) , who is a junior SAMBO and Judo Euro champ, was invited to train on full scholarship in top uni in Tokyo, leading up to his participation as member pf the Olympic Judo team of Bulgaria.
He is a sparring partner for the heavyweights from the top Judo competitors of Japan, including Harasawa.
Why do you think they invite a SAMBO champ to train with them?

 

[Kbits]

Here is another twist:
Combat Sambo is maybe the closest thing to MMA, to have national, continental and world championships on amateur level...

Is the provisional status for Sport Sambo, Combat Sambo or both? IIRC, Pankration almost made it into the 2004 games...if Combat Sambo makes it in the 2024 games, that will be basically MMA @ Olympic level.

 

[dsdoubled]

Example:
A friend of mine (Daniel Dichev, BUL) , who is a junior SAMBO and Judo Euro champ, was invited to train on full scholarship in top uni in Tokyo, leading up to his participation as member pf the Olympic Judo team of Bulgaria.

Any idea if this is how Maximo Blanco wound up in Japan? I seem to remember something about him getting a scholarship to wrestle in Japan.

 

[Bluesbreaker]

Google it.
Kosei Inoue is the current national Judo coach of Japan.
He is the first one the break the cycle of old school Japanese Judo training and recognizes the need of cross training and camps with foreign teams.
Example:
A friend of mine (Daniel Dichev, BUL) , who is a junior SAMBO and Judo Euro champ, was invited to train on full scholarship in top uni in Tokyo, leading up to his participation as member pf the Olympic Judo team of Bulgaria.
He is a sparring partner for the heavyweights from the top Judo competitors of Japan, including Harasawa.
Why do you think they invite a SAMBO champ to train with them?

Cool story.

 

[yetanother]

Why do you think they invite a SAMBO champ to train with them?

Maybe because of his Judo?

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Is the provisional status for Sport Sambo, Combat Sambo or both? IIRC, Pankration almost made it into the 2004 games...if Combat Sambo makes it in the 2024 games, that will be basically MMA @ Olympic level.

Sport Sambo only.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Th

Maybe because of his Judo?

Thats not how it works.