[Ryan Garcia] My levels are so low for someone who took ostarine.

[BoxingMMA]

Has a fight ever been canceled because a fighter missed weight?

Has a fighter ever been banned by the commission for missing weight?

Has a fighter ever lost a world title over missing weight?

The answer to all of these questions is a resounding yes. It's honestly sad that you're defending a guy that chose to not make weight in order to gain an unfair advantage while doping.

But you still haven’t answered.

Fights get canceled or cleared for all sorts of reasons, Jeff lacy had a fight canceled because his opponent was afraid how he looked shirtless.

Corrales Castillo 3 was canceled because corrales decided he didn’t want to fight. (Money didn’t blind him like it did Haney)

I will ask again.

If Garcia is known to have roids in his system before the fight even begins, does the fight still happen even if Haney wants to?

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

But you still haven’t answered.

Fights get canceled or cleared for all sorts of reasons, Jeff lacy had a fight canceled because his opponent was afraid how he looked shirtless.

Corrales Castillo 3 was canceled because corrales decided he didn’t want to fight. (Money didn’t blind him like it did Haney)

I will ask again.

If Garcia is known to have roids in his system before the fight even begins, does the fight still happen even if Haney wants to?

Both of your examples didn't involve breaking the rules or violating a contractual obligation. Fighters are allowed to pull out at the last minute. They can't be forced to fight. I also don't buy the first one but that's neither here nor there. Garcia did have PEDs in his system before the fight. The difference is that it wasn't discovered until later. Tests take time to process.

That said, there actually have been examples of fights going ahead even when the commission knew that a fighter tested positive for a PED. So, to answer your question, it depends on the commission and what banned substance(s) were found before the fight.

 

[BoxingMMA]

Both of your examples didn't involve breaking the rules or violating a contractual obligation. Fighters are allowed to pull out at the last minute. They can't be forced to fight. I also don't buy the first one but that's neither here nor there. Garcia did have PEDs in his system before the fight. The difference is that it wasn't discovered until later. Tests take time to process.

That said, there actually have been examples of fights going ahead even when the commission knew that a fighter tested positive for a PED. So, to answer your question, it depends on the commission and what banned substance(s) were found before the fight.

There’s just no way the Nevada athletic commission would allow a fighter to fight if they have been proven to cheat, whether it is roíds or plaster in their gloves, if it is dangerous to the opponent, life threatening in any way or giving an unfair advantage to the fighter, the fight simply does not happen.

If Haney and Garcia shook on the deal about paying 500 grand for every pound he went extra, then there’s already the idea at play that Garcia may or may not make weight and Haney seems to be fine with it because he actually made a bet, he figured he’d made some cash off Garcia’s lack of discipline.

Needless to say, Ryan taking roids? That’s cheating, Margarito plastering his hands? Cheating and maybe even jail worthy. Garcia losing his 1.5 mill bet with Haney and losing the chance at a belt? Not cheating, especially when he wasn’t the heavier man in the ring and the whole world knew about it before the fight started.

I’m not defending Ryan, I’m saying missing weight by 3.5 isn’t chafing because the opponent has the choice of not fighting, the commission has the choice of punishing the fighter, yet they don’t, at least not to the extent they would if it were actual cheating like peds

In reality, it’s part of the boxing game, rehydrating, missing weight and paying a fine, throwing a low blow to get a breather, spitting the mouthpiece like corrales did, elbows, “Holyfield” style headbutts, Ryan’s retarded spin around defense to stop receiving punishment… it’s all part of the game, it’s gamesmanship and allowed to to a certain point, warnings, fines, point deductions and in some cases disqualification and if the offense is bad enough, license revoking.

As for the Jeff lacy story, Larry merchant and Lampley used to tell it back when he was relevant before the Joe fight.

Right now all I can find regarding that story is this link but it could very well be bullshit

https://www.ringtv.com/121659-lacy-written-off-but-determined/

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

There’s just no way the Nevada athletic commission would allow a fighter to fight if they have been proven to cheat, whether it is roíds or plaster in their gloves, if it is dangerous to the opponent, life threatening in any way or giving an unfair advantage to the fighter, the fight simply does not happen.

If Haney and Garcia shook on the deal about paying 500 grand for every pound he went extra, then there’s already the idea at play that Garcia may or may not make weight and Haney seems to be fine with it because he actually made a bet, he figured he’d made some cash off Garcia’s lack of discipline.

Needless to say, Ryan taking roids? That’s cheating, Margarito plastering his hands? Cheating and maybe even jail worthy. Garcia losing his 1.5 mill bet with Haney and losing the chance at a belt? Not cheating, especially when he wasn’t the heavier man in the ring and the whole world knew about it before the fight started.

I’m not defending Ryan, I’m saying missing weight by 3.5 isn’t chafing because the opponent has the choice of not fighting, the commission has the choice of punishing the fighter, yet they don’t, at least not to the extent they would if it were actual cheating like peds

In reality, it’s part of the boxing game, rehydrating, missing weight and paying a fine, throwing a low blow to get a breather, spitting the mouthpiece like corrales did, elbows, “Holyfield” style headbutts, Ryan’s retarded spin around defense to stop receiving punishment… it’s all part of the game, it’s gamesmanship and allowed to to a certain point, warnings, fines, point deductions and in some cases disqualification and if the offense is bad enough, license revoking.

As for the Jeff lacy story, Larry merchant and Lampley used to tell it back when he was relevant before the Joe fight.

Right now all I can find regarding that story is this link but it could very well be bullshit

https://www.ringtv.com/121659-lacy-written-off-but-determined/

The Nevada State Athletic Commission would never allow a fighter that popped for a banned substance to compete? They already have. The UFC/USADA even granted Lesnar a TUE at the time. Therapeutic Use Exemption.

UFC Releases Statement on Brock Lesnar's Positive Doping Test Ahead of UFC 200

This has happened more than once. In fact, just recently Oscar Valdez fought Conceicao after popping for phentermine. The Tribal Athletic Commission (TAC) in Arizona ruled that he could fight anyway.

Oscar Valdez's failed drug test implies that the sport's policies are all for show

 

[BoxingMMA]

The Nevada State Athletic Commission would never allow a fighter that popped for a banned substance to compete? They already have. The UFC/USADA even granted Lesnar a TUE at the time. Therapeutic Use Exemption.

UFC Releases Statement on Brock Lesnar's Positive Doping Test Ahead of UFC 200

This has happened more than once. In fact, just recently Oscar Valdez fought Conceicao after popping for phentermine. The Tribal Athletic Commission (TAC) in Arizona ruled that he could fight anyway.

Oscar Valdez's failed drug test implies that the sport's policies are all for show

Unless I don’t remember it correctly, when that happens it’s usually because it’s a drug for weight loss or shit like that, not an actual performance enhancement, when the health of the athletes are at stake, there’s no way a fight would go on if a fighter gets caught cheating.

But even then, if a fight is allowed to go on and both parties agree that they can fight, then by definition it can’t be cheating anymore as everything is over the table.

If Ryan turns out to actually have been as roided up as they say, then that’s cheating, plain and simple.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Unless I don’t remember it correctly, when that happens it’s usually because it’s a drug for weight loss or shit like that, not an actual performance enhancement, when the health of the athletes are at stake, there’s no way a fight would go on if a fighter gets caught cheating.

But even then, if a fight is allowed to go on and both parties agree that they can fight, then by definition it can’t be cheating anymore as everything is over the table.

If Ryan turns out to actually have been as roided up as they say, then that’s cheating, plain and simple.

Lesnar tested positive for clomiphene. It's a banned PED. Here's what the NIH has to say about it.

"In sport, clomiphene is prohibited at all times for use by athletes and is listed in the section S4. 2 (hormone and metabolic modulators) by the World Anti-Doping Agency. Indeed, clomiphene can indirectly increase testosterone levels in the body and can mitigate some side effects of synthetic steroid abuse."

As I said earlier, it depends on the commission and what banned substances were found and/or their levels. The two examples I listed were positive pre-fight drug tests administered by USADA (no longer used by the UFC) & VADA.

Fact of the matter is that fighters who have missed weight has caused cancelations. It has caused some fighters to be banned (like Nery was for a while in Japan) and stripped them of their world title. Why? Because purposely coming in overweight is considered cheating. That's why there are consequences. The worst being an outright ban like Nery received previously.

 

[BoxingMMA]

Lesnar tested positive for clomiphene. It's a banned PED. Here's what the NIH has to say about it.

"In sport, clomiphene is prohibited at all times for use by athletes and is listed in the section S4. 2 (hormone and metabolic modulators) by the World Anti-Doping Agency. Indeed, clomiphene can indirectly increase testosterone levels in the body and can mitigate some side effects of synthetic steroid abuse."

As I said earlier, it depends on the commission and what banned substances were found and/or their levels. The two examples I listed were positive pre-fight drug tests administered by USADA (no longer used by the UFC) & VADA.

Fact of the matter is that fighters who have missed weight has caused cancelations. It has caused some fighters to be banned (like Nery was for a while in Japan) and stripped them of their world title. Why? Because purposely coming in overweight is considered cheating. That's why there are consequences. The worst being an outright ban like Nery received previously.

If the fight doesn’t go through, like corrales castillo 3, then corrales would be rightful to say that he didn’t fight because Castillo cheated by intentionally not making weight.

If, however, the fight does go through all parties accept the new terms, crying cheating is officially off the table, can’t have the cake and eat it too, Haney isn’t exactly a struggling fighter with no money, if 3lbs was too much for him, he could/should have not taken the fight.

The drugs that commissions usually allow fighters to fight with are things dealing with estrogen, testosterone, weight loss, relaxants. Etc. yes they are banned but if they don’t deem them dangerous they might make exceptions. Who knows what their priorities are over there. Marijuana is banned after all

If something is actually cheating, such as hiding something to get an illegal advantage, fight will be canceled.

We’ll see what happens with Ryan as far as the tests go

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

If the fight doesn’t go through, like corrales castillo 3, then corrales would be rightful to say that he didn’t fight because Castillo cheated by intentionally not making weight.

If, however, the fight does go through all parties accept the new terms, crying cheating is officially off the table, can’t have the cake and eat it too, Haney isn’t exactly a struggling fighter with no money, if 3lbs was too much for him, he could/should have not taken the fight.

The drugs that commissions usually allow fighters to fight with are things dealing with estrogen, testosterone, weight loss, relaxants. Etc. yes they are banned but if they don’t deem them dangerous they might make exceptions. Who knows what their priorities are over there. Marijuana is banned after all

If something is actually cheating, such as hiding something to get an illegal advantage, fight will be canceled.

We’ll see what happens with Ryan as far as the tests go

Ryan signed a contract that he would make a particular weight. That weight was 140 lbs. Not 143.2 lbs. I'll say it one last time. Paying a fine doesn't erase the deed. The unfair advantage is still there and was in the fight. Money doesn't fix that.

Lesnar was caught both out-of-competition and in-competition with clomiphene in his system which is used in Post Cycle Therapy (PCT). It's part of the PED stack they knew he was on. Pretty damning stuff.

Banned substances are banned substances though. Even recreational ones. By your own logic every commission would halt a fight if they knew either fighter had tested positive for anything on the list. That doesn't always happen universally. If you think that it isn't cheating just because they choose to allow the fight to be contested, well, that's just bad logic.

 

[BoxingMMA]

Ryan signed a contract that he would make a particular weight. That weight was 140 lbs. Not 143.2 lbs. I'll say it one last time. Paying a fine doesn't erase the deed. The unfair advantage is still there and was in the fight. Money doesn't fix that.

Lesnar was caught both out-of-competition and in-competition with clomiphene in his system which is used in Post Cycle Therapy (PCT). It's part of the PED stack they knew he was on. Pretty damning stuff.

Banned substances are banned substances though. Even recreational ones. By your own logic every commission would halt a fight if they knew either fighter had tested positive for anything on the list. That doesn't always happen universally. If you think that it isn't cheating just because they choose to allow the fight to be contested, well, that's just bad logic

The problem here is exactly that. Logic, you are not applying it.

If Ryan and Haney shake on it, bet that if Ryan goes over he will pay 500 per lb, then does it when he goes over and Haney accepts the fight anyway while taking the money, no dishonesty happened anywhere, we all read the scale, so did Haney, nobody lied.


Then Haney comes in bigger in the actual fight negating that advantage in the first place. All it means is Ryan couldn’t make weight.

 

[NoSmilez]

Is it referring to the levels of ostarine in his system or his actual test levels?

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

The problem here is exactly that. Logic, you are not applying it.

If Ryan and Haney shake on it, bet that if Ryan goes over he will pay 500 per lb, then does it when he goes over and Haney accepts the fight anyway while taking the money, no dishonesty happened anywhere, we all read the scale, so did Haney, nobody lied.


Then Haney comes in bigger in the actual fight negating that advantage in the first place. All it means is Ryan couldn’t make weight.

You've already been told why Haney accepted the fight. It was either that or likely cancel the entire event. If they're lucky, and the card is stacked enough, then they may be able to afford losing the headliner by making the co-main the main but that's never guaranteed. Ryan signed a contract agreeing to 140 lbs. He then looked Haney in the eye and shook his hand to assure him that he'd make weight. But you don't see the dishonesty here? Amazing.

 

[BoxingMMA]

You've already been told why Haney accepted the fight. It was either that or likely cancel the entire event. If they're lucky, and the card is stacked enough, then they may be able to afford losing the headliner by making the co-main the main but that's never guaranteed. Ryan signed a contract agreeing to 140 lbs. He then looked Haney in the eye and shook his hand to assure him that he'd make weight. But you don't see the dishonesty here? Amazing.

They shook on Ryan having to pay 500lb per pound he didn’t make.

If Ryan didn’t pay that would have been a dick move but he did.

Haney would never not take the fight because he rehydrates more than Ryan ever could, he made an extra 1.5 mill thanks to Ryan.

It is also impossible to prove that Ryan didn’t make weight intentionally. Regardless of how sure you feel about it, it’s just not possible to know what happened, especially with someone that unstable.

If anything I thought it was nice of him to pay the 1.5 mill, at the end of the day, he kept his word.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

They shook on Ryan having to pay 500lb per pound he didn’t make.

If Ryan didn’t pay that would have been a dick move but he did.

Haney would never not take the fight because he rehydrates more than Ryan ever could, he made an extra 1.5 mill thanks to Ryan.

It is also impossible to prove that Ryan didn’t make weight intentionally. Regardless of how sure you feel about it, it’s just not possible to know what happened, especially with someone that unstable.

If anything I thought it was nice of him to pay the 1.5 mill, at the end of the day, he kept his word.

Of course Ryan came in overweight deliberately. He's a professional athlete. Professionals don't miss weight by several pounds and then not even try to make weight again. He'd never missed before to my knowledge and he used to have to make even lower weights (130 & 135 lbs). It's blatantly obvious to anyone with a brain that this was part of his plan. The other part, as we later found out, was doping.

 

[BoxingMMA]

Of course Ryan came in overweight deliberately. He's a professional athlete. Professionals don't miss weight by several pounds and then not even try to make weight again. He'd never missed before to my knowledge and he used to have to make even lower weights (130 & 135 lbs). It's blatantly obvious to anyone with a brain that this was part of his plan. The other part, as we later found out, was doping.

I can’t be sure of things I don’t know, if he doped then he cheated, simple, because he would obviously do that intentionally.

Missing weight by 3lbs can mean a lot of things, sometimes negative sometimes positive and I can’t presume to know what went on in his head.

All I know is he had to weight himself in front of everyone, we saw him pay Haney out of pocket and they reached new terms for their fight. On that last part I simply can’t see cheating because both fighters had their cards on the table and Haney was likely heavier than Garcia for more than 5lbs while in the actual fight.

But peds are a different story and that has the potential to take away the win.

Do not care either way, I don’t like either fighter, this is just my stance on when fighters miss weight by a few lbs, because it can be both an advantage or a disadvantage depending on the reason why the extra weight happened and the opponent is free to not take the fight if they think there’s actual danger to their health.

We’ll continue this lovely conversation tomorrow as I’m going to bed.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

I can’t be sure of things I don’t know, if he doped then he cheated, simple, because he would obviously do that intentionally.

Missing weight by 3lbs can mean a lot of things, sometimes negative sometimes positive and I can’t presume to know what went on in his head.

All I know is he had to weight himself in front of everyone, we saw him pay Haney out of pocket and they reached new terms for their fight. On that last part I simply can’t see cheating because both fighters had their cards on the table and Haney was likely heavier than Garcia for more than 5lbs while in the actual fight.

But peds are a different story and that has the potential to take away the win.

Do not care either way, I don’t like either fighter, this is just my stance on when fighters miss weight by a few lbs, because it can be both an advantage or a disadvantage depending on the reason why the extra weight happened and the opponent is free to not take the fight if they think there’s actual danger to their health.

We’ll continue this lovely conversation tomorrow as I’m going to bed.

Not having to make weight is always an advantage. It has to do with their hydration level regardless of what their body composition looks like. Not having to deplete yourself initially is highly advantageous to any fighter. Haney had to make the weight, Ryan chose not to. He didn't even bother to try. That tells me everything I need to know.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

The problem here is exactly that. Logic, you are not applying it.

If Ryan and Haney shake on it, bet that if Ryan goes over he will pay 500 per lb, then does it when he goes over and Haney accepts the fight anyway while taking the money, no dishonesty happened anywhere, we all read the scale, so did Haney, nobody lied.


Then Haney comes in bigger in the actual fight negating that advantage in the first place. All it means is Ryan couldn’t make weight.

There are obviously externals factors that would pressures someone to accept a fight with a heavier opponent with one days notice.



Haney coming in "bigger" does not negate the advantage. You're saying you're applying logic, but if what you're saying is true you're saying cutting weight makes zero difference, which is the same thing as saying weight classes do not matter.


Cutting weight affects your performance. Being heavier than your opponent affects your performance. Only 1/2 of those things need to be true in this scenario, not 2/2.


It is a fact that both Garcia weighted more than Haney (at least one day before the fight), and cut less weight than Haney (unless he was cutting down from 200 pounds or something). There is a notable difference between being one pound overweight and three + pounds over weight when you are 140 pounds.

 

[BoxingMMA]

Not having to make weight is always an advantage. It has to do with their hydration level regardless of what their body composition looks like. Not having to deplete yourself initially is highly advantageous to any fighter. Haney had to make the weight, Ryan chose not to. He didn't even bother to try. That tells me everything I need to know.

As I said multiple times before, it can be an advantage, in some cases it’s a sign of a poorly executed camp, remember Chavez Jr. In the case of Ryan I already said it was an advantage but an advantage isn’t cheating, not when the advantage is there for the world to see and both parties agreed to the fight, it just isn’t cheating and even if it were cheating, he paid the price and a new contest was formed in which it wasn’t cheating.

I also don’t think Shakur, Robson and I don’t think Gervonta cheated or Benavidez.

If it was such a huge deal, the fights would automatically be scrapped, but it’s a case by case thing, depending fighter history.

 

[BoxingMMA]

There are obviously externals factors that would pressures someone to accept a fight with a heavier opponent with one days notice.



Haney coming in "bigger" does not negate the advantage. You're saying you're applying logic, but if what you're saying is true you're saying cutting weight makes zero difference, which is the same thing as saying weight classes do not matter.


Cutting weight affects your performance. Being heavier than your opponent affects your performance. Only 1/2 of those things need to be true in this scenario, not 2/2.


It is a fact that both Garcia weighted more than Haney (at least one day before the fight), and cut less weight than Haney (unless he was cutting down from 200 pounds or something). There is a notable difference between being one pound overweight and three + pounds over weight when you are 140 pounds.

If it were actual cheating, regardless of outside scenarios or pressures, the fight wouldn’t go on.

Imagine a Wimbledon final and Djokovic comes with hacked tennis balls, then Nadal says “ok I’ll play you anyway, just give me 1.5 million”

The ATP wouldn’t let that match go forward regardless even if the stadium is already full.

If the boxing powers that be don’t have the balls do cancel a fight every time a fighter misses weight, that is a different story.

 

[5acrossYOeye]

I've read what the people who follow PED levels/usage had to say about Garcia's failed test and I've read what the people who think this is all one big conspiracy against Ryan.

The two views couldn't be more opposite.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

As I said multiple times before, it can be an advantage, in some cases it’s a sign of a poorly executed camp, remember Chavez Jr. In the case of Ryan I already said it was an advantage but an advantage isn’t cheating, not when the advantage is there for the world to see and both parties agreed to the fight, it just isn’t cheating and even if it were cheating, he paid the price and a new contest was formed in which it wasn’t cheating.

I also don’t think Shakur, Robson and I don’t think Gervonta cheated or Benavidez.

If it was such a huge deal, the fights would automatically be scrapped, but it’s a case by case thing, depending fighter history.

Not sure how to tell you this but missing weight, and by several pounds, is in fact a huge deal. It's already been explained to you why that is. Not having to cut to make weight is always, I repeat always, an advantage. It's measurable and the commission can actually check a fighter's hydration level. I wrestled so I had to make weight many times. Even though I only cut a little bit of water weight I could feel the toll it took on my body. You clearly don't understand how any of this works.