International Russia/Ukraine Megathread V15

Full article with more details just dropped on the archives. The adversary force was 100 men including the 10 man Ukrainian drone team. They wiped out 2 NATO battalions in a single day. In other words, they were outnumbered more than 10:1 by NATO forces and they still won without breaking a sweat. Anyone who still thinks Ukraine is some shitty ex-Soviet military or Russia is a paper tiger is absolutely fucking retarded. Either one of them would casually rack up absurd kill ratios vs. a NATO army.


NATO Has Seen the Future and Is Unprepared

A simulation of drone warfare shows how far the alliance has to go to learn the lessons of Ukraine.


Russia and Ukraine have shown the world the future of warfare—and America and its allies aren’t ready for it. That’s the lesson of a major exercise that North Atlantic Treaty Organization members conducted in Estonia last May. What transpired during the exercise, with the details reported here for the first time, exposed serious tactical shortcomings and vulnerabilities in high-intensity drone combat.

The exercise, known as Hedgehog 2025, involved more than 16,000 troops from 12 NATO countries who drilled alongside Ukrainian drone experts, including soldiers borrowed from the front line. It simulated a “contested and congested” battlefield with various kinds of drones, says Lt. Col. Arbo Probal, head of the unmanned systems program for the Estonian Defence Forces. “The aim was really to create friction, the stress for units, and the cognitive overload as soon as possible,” he says. That tests the soldiers’ ability to adapt under fire.

In Ukraine the front line is largely frozen, but Hedgehog envisioned a battlefield where tanks and troops still have some ability to move. During one scenario, a battle group of several thousand troops, including a British brigade and an Estonian division, sought to conduct an attack. As they advanced, they failed to account for how drones have made the battlefield more transparent, several sources say.

The NATO battle group was “just walking around, not using any kind of disguise, parking tents and armored vehicles,” recalls one participant, who played an enemy role. “It was all destroyed.”
During Hedgehog Ukrainians used Delta, their sophisticated battlefield-management system. It collects real-time battlefield intelligence, uses artificial intelligence to analyze huge amounts of data, identifies targets, and coordinates strikes across command and units. That enables a fast “kill chain”: See it, share it, shoot it—all within minutes or less.

A single team of some 10 Ukrainians, acting as the adversary, counterattacked the NATO forces. In about half a day they mock-destroyed 17 armored vehicles and conducted 30 “strikes” on other targets.

Aivar Hanniotti, an Estonian Defense League unmanned aerial systems coordinator, led an adversary unit of about 100 that included Estonians and Ukrainians. Mr. Hanniotti, who has since left the regular military, describes how they deployed more than 30 drones against NATO troops in an area of less than 4 square miles. That’s only about half the drone saturation Ukrainians currently see at the front, though Col. Probal says the Hedgehog umpires sometimes offset that discrepancy by recording the drone strikes as twice as damaging or more. But even with less reconnaissance than in real life, “there was no possibility to hide,” Mr. Hanniotti says. “We quite easily found cars and mechanized units, and we were able to take them out quite fast with strike drones.”


Overall, the results were “horrible” for NATO forces, says Mr. Hanniotti, who now works in the private sector as an unmanned systems expert. The adversary forces were “able to eliminate two battalions in a day,” so that “in an exercise sense, basically, they were not able to fight anymore after that.” The NATO side “didn’t even get our drone teams.”

Credit the Estonians for forcing NATO partners to confront these weak spots. Hedgehog was also an example of how Ukrainians can contribute to overall European security. There’s only so much you can learn from watching online footage or reading about what’s transpiring in Ukraine, says Sten Reimann, a former commander of Estonia’s Military Intelligence Center who helped bring in Ukrainian drone experts for Hedgehog. He said the results of this exercise were “shocking” to military officials and troops on the ground.

Hedgehog didn’t deal with political or strategic issues like drone procurement. Estonia is small, and land-use limitations sometimes constrained how troops could move. No single exercise can reflect how quickly drone technology evolves during an actual war. Still, Hedgehog showed how visible the battlefield has become—and how vulnerable that makes anyone or anything moving on it. NATO will need to adjust its tactics and find better ways to protect its tanks and armored vehicles.

Another lesson is the need for a faster kill chain, which requires more efficient cooperation on strikes. During a future war game, NATO might consider pitting Delta against a similar battlefield-management platform developed by the U.S. to see how they stack up. There’s also room to improve communication and coordination between units. Ukrainians accelerate attacks by sharing large amounts of data between command and units. But that runs counter to NATO’s instinct to restrict sensitive information.

“Lessons are not learned when they are identified,” says retired Gen. David Petraeus. “Rather, they are only learned when you develop new concepts, write new doctrine, change organizational structures, overhaul your training, refine leader development courses, set out new materiel requirements that drive the procurement process, and even make changes to your personnel policies, recruiting, and facilities.”

Estonia is trying to implement such major changes. It has updated its training, tactics and military doctrine for the drone era. It is also increasing defense spending and building deeper relationships with its vibrant private tech industry to work on drones and other military innovations.

Yet too many NATO members continue to show “a fundamental lack of understanding of the modern battlefield” and train their soldiers “based on doctrines and manuals that are not adapted to today’s realities,” says Maria Lemberg of the Ukrainian nonprofit Aerorozvidka, which supported Delta’s development. She helped coordinate Ukraine’s participation in Hedgehog and hopes it can serve as a wake-up call and basis for more knowledge-sharing between Kyiv and its partners.

Multiple sources told the story of one commander, who observed the drill and concluded, “We are f—.” I asked Estonia’s Col. Probal about this reaction. He said that one aim of the exercise was to help participants “think more, to make them critical toward themselves, to make sure they are not complacent in what they are doing right now.” Was it a success? “From my point of view, mission accomplished.”
 
Ukraine is the best army in NATO and it's not even close.
EU armies got absolutely shit-kicked by the Ukrainians in war games, as in a single drone team wiped out 2 NATO battalions.
And yet we still have retards who still think the Ukrainian & Russian armies are some shitty 3rd rate powers that NATO can just roll right over in a weekend if they wanted to.


Details: The article describes the Hedgehog 2025 exercise, which involved more than 16,000 service members from 12 NATO countries. Ukrainian drone experts also trained alongside them, including soldiers deployed from the front.

Quote: "In Ukraine the front line is largely frozen, but Hedgehog envisioned a battlefield where tanks and troops still have some ability to move. During one scenario, a battle group of several thousand troops, including a British brigade and an Estonian division, sought to conduct an attack. As they advanced, they failed to account for how drones have made the battlefield more transparent, several sources say.

The NATO battle group was 'just walking around, not using any kind of disguise, parking tents and armored vehicles', recalls one participant, who played an enemy role. 'It was all destroyed'."

Details: Melchior notes that during the exercise Ukrainian personnel used the Delta system, which gathers battlefield intelligence in real time, analyses it, identifies targets and coordinates strikes between command and units.

Quote: "A single team of some 10 Ukrainians, acting as the adversary, counterattacked the NATO forces. In about half a day they mock-destroyed 17 armored vehicles and conducted 30 'strikes' on other targets."

Details: One participant stated that the team managed to "eliminate two battalions in a day".
I never understood war games and I have a hard time taking them seriously. Am I supposed to believe that two countries who have the possibility of fighting each other or having their enemy watch their actions do exactly what they would do if a real war were to happen? Why would a country show their hand like that? Doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not in the military and don't know much about it though so maybe that is what happens. It just seems dumb to show your enemy exactly what you would do in a war.
 
Not once in the entire war have they deployed the quantity of drones in a day that you claimed they would be able deploy daily and indefinitely starting months ago.
That is a different subject.
...and Russia is capable of deploying that number of drones and missiles in a day, they just have not done it.
We were talking about drones that have been used by Russia over the past 4 years.
 
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That is a different subject.
...and Russia is capable of deploying that number of drones and missiles, they just have not done it.
We were talking about drones that have been used by Russia over the past 4 years.

No it's not a different subject, it is what we are talking about and what you were specifically wrong about.
 
No it's not a different subject, it is what we are talking about and what you were specifically wrong about.
🤣
Okay bright boy. Apples and oranges are the same thing. Here is what you said:
They don't even have enough drones to counter Ukrainian drone operations in just the areas they were supposed to be advancing in.
Russia has not committed to a 2,500 drone/missile attack in November or December. That does not mean they will not do it in the future.
Again, why hasn't Russia leveled Kiev with medium and large missiles with conventional warheads? They fact they have not done it does not mean they can't do it.
 
EBRD had signed proposal that after war they will do physical inventarization in Ukraine not just audits process on paper. Majority of EBRD loans were tied to specific locations and for specific purpose.

EBRD is most merciless lender in this world.
They are more meciless than mafia or IMF.
Brutality level is with 0 borders.
In core.
 
🤣
Okay bright boy. Apples and oranges are the same thing. Here is what you said:

Russia has not committed to a 2,500 drone/missile attack in November or December. That does not mean they will not do it in the future.
Again, why hasn't Russia leveled Kiev with medium and large missiles with conventional warheads? They fact they have not done it does not mean they can't do it.
You did they were going to start doing it every day without stopping. You were wrong.
 
Ukraine is the best army in NATO and it's not even close.
EU armies got absolutely shit-kicked by the Ukrainians in war games, as in a single drone team wiped out 2 NATO battalions.
And yet we still have retards who still think the Ukrainian & Russian armies are some shitty 3rd rate powers that NATO can just roll right over in a weekend if they wanted to.


Details: The article describes the Hedgehog 2025 exercise, which involved more than 16,000 service members from 12 NATO countries. Ukrainian drone experts also trained alongside them, including soldiers deployed from the front.

Quote: "In Ukraine the front line is largely frozen, but Hedgehog envisioned a battlefield where tanks and troops still have some ability to move. During one scenario, a battle group of several thousand troops, including a British brigade and an Estonian division, sought to conduct an attack. As they advanced, they failed to account for how drones have made the battlefield more transparent, several sources say.

The NATO battle group was 'just walking around, not using any kind of disguise, parking tents and armored vehicles', recalls one participant, who played an enemy role. 'It was all destroyed'."

Details: Melchior notes that during the exercise Ukrainian personnel used the Delta system, which gathers battlefield intelligence in real time, analyses it, identifies targets and coordinates strikes between command and units.

Quote: "A single team of some 10 Ukrainians, acting as the adversary, counterattacked the NATO forces. In about half a day they mock-destroyed 17 armored vehicles and conducted 30 'strikes' on other targets."

Details: One participant stated that the team managed to "eliminate two battalions in a day".
This scenario gives the Ukrainian Army way too much credit. Is the Ukrainian Army better than the U.S. Army? No.
To be fair to NATO European Armies, they were not fighting with the same drone capabilities Ukraine had. Had the tables been turned, the Ukrainian unit would have been destroyed. As is usually the case, we tend to fight future wars with strategy from the last war. Artillery and missile strikes alone would have defeated the Ukrainian unit. Where were they in this exercise?

A similar exercise issue from 2021:

"In a November 2021 Exercise Green Dagger at Twentynine Palms, California, British Royal Marines dominated U.S. Marine Corps forces, leading to reports that the Americans were forced to ask for a "reset" after significant simulated losses. The British commandos utilized advanced, flexible tactics to control 65% of the battlespace and "destroy" most U.S. assets."

The Core Dispute:
  • British Media Claims: Outlets like The Daily Telegraph reported that the 40 Commando Royal Marines "dominated" their American counterparts, forcing them into a surrender halfway through the five-day exercise. Reports suggested the British ended the drill controlling 65% of the area after starting with less than 20%.
  • U.S. Marine Corps Refutation: A USMC spokesperson told Military Times that the claims were inaccurate, stating the exercise has no "winners," "surrenders," or "resets." They clarified it was a non-scored training event designed to test new concepts like the Littoral Response Group.
So, just like the U.S. Marines can obliterate British Royal Marines, British military units (with artillery and missiles) can obliterate Ukrainian units. Can the Ukrainian Army defeat the Israeli Army? No. Will the Ukrainian Army defeat the Russian Army in 2026? No.
 
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You did they were going to start doing it every day without stopping. You were wrong.
Wrong again. They were going to do it 1 day per month. 1 day out of 30.
Russia can't sustain a 2,500 drone/missile strike every day for 30 days. Come on!
 
This scenario gives the Ukrainian Army way too much credit. Is the Ukrainian Army better than the U.S. Army? No.
To be fair to NATO European Armies, they were not fighting with the same drone capabilities Ukraine had. Had the tables been turned, the Ukrainian unit would have been destroyed. As is usually the case, we tend to fight future wars with strategy from the last war. Artillery and missile strikes alone would have defeated the Ukrainian unit. Where were they in this exercise?

A similar exercise issue from 2021:

"In a November 2021 Exercise Green Dagger at Twentynine Palms, California, British Royal Marines dominated U.S. Marine Corps forces, leading to reports that the Americans were forced to ask for a "reset" after significant simulated losses. The British commandos utilized advanced, flexible tactics to control 65% of the battlespace and "destroy" most U.S. assets."

The Core Dispute:
  • British Media Claims: Outlets like The Daily Telegraph reported that the 40 Commando Royal Marines "dominated" their American counterparts, forcing them into a surrender halfway through the five-day exercise. Reports suggested the British ended the drill controlling 65% of the area after starting with less than 20%.
  • U.S. Marine Corps Refutation: A USMC spokesperson told Military Times that the claims were inaccurate, stating the exercise has no "winners," "surrenders," or "resets." They clarified it was a non-scored training event designed to test new concepts like the Littoral Response Group.
So, just like the U.S. Marines can obliterate British Royal Marines, British military units (with artillery and missiles) can obliterate Ukrainian units. Can the Ukrainian Army defeat the Israeli Army? No. Will the Ukrainian Army defeat the Russian Army in 2026? No.
Ukrainian army is level better than U.S special tasks forces. Even these are puffy cubicle level specialists nothing more. Noobs in real life and 0 balls to fight vs peer level opponents. Better maybe to agree with Lenin and Sverdlov that anglo saxonians soul, fatherland and core value is gold in pockets.
I don't use Yekateringurg instead of Sverdlovsk because comrade Sverdlov was great gentleman.
For me Yekaterinburg is Sverdlovsk.
Comrade Sverdlov knew better than Stalin how to process internal enemies.
 
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