International Russia/Ukraine Megathread V15

[Hog-train]

So Ukraine won and Russia lost. Ukraine still exists, Russia has not achieved their goals.

Ukraine's goal is not to have 20% of their land taken. They failed in that respect.

If the conflict and borders gets frozen as it is right now with a "peace treaty," I don't know how TF you can say Ukraine won.

 

[Rational Poster]

Ukraine's goal is not to have 20% of their land taken. They failed in that respect.

If the conflict and borders gets frozen as it is right now with a "peace treaty," I don't know how TF you can say Ukraine won.

Their goal is to still exist without being under Russian domination. That's a win when Russia's goal is to make them not exist.

 

[Hog-train]

Their goal is to still exist. That's a win when Russia's goal is to make them not exist.

But Russia is keeping territory it took in a war of aggression. And they get a chance to rebuild for future invasions. That is horrible for Ukraine.

 

[Rational Poster]

But Russia is keeping territory it took in a war of aggression. And they get a chance to rebuild for future invasions. That is horrible for Ukraine.

It's significantly less horrible than not existing or being under Russian domination.

Ukraine gets to prepare for future invasions as well.

 

[filthybliss]

Russia knows it has zero chance to take all of Ukraine now. They're not completely moronic.

But their new goal of getting a land bridge to Crimea is achieved.

Keyword "now".

In a couple years, they can relaunch a smoother invasion and get more land if Ukraine gets blacklisted from NATO.

 

[Hog-train]

It's significantly less horrible than not existing or being under Russian domination.

Ukraine gets to prepare for future invasions as well.

All terms of any potential peace deal includes Ukraine not ever being part of NATO and an end to sanctions.

So peace deal is: Ukraine no NATO, Russia keeps Donbas, no more sanctions and they have a chance to rebuild. Sounds like a MASSIVE loss for Ukraine to me.

Keyword "now".

In a couple years, they can relaunch a smoother invasion and get more land if Ukraine gets blacklisted from NATO.

Exactly. Any peace deal (that Trump keeps promising) is a massive loss for Ukraine.

 

[Rational Poster]

All terms of any potential peace deal includes Ukraine not ever being part of NATO and an end to sanctions.

So peace deal is: Ukraine no NATO, Russia keeps Donbas, no more sanctions and they have a chance to rebuild. Sounds like a MASSIVE loss for Ukraine to me.



Exactly. Any peace deal (that Trump keeps promising) is a massive loss for Ukraine.

Ukraine isn't in NATO now and is getting plenty of arms. Russia can't control shit in peace time. If they arm, Ukraine will get arms. There's already plans for Rheinmetal to build factories after the war ends.

Russia already had de facto control of the Donbass prior to the war even starting, so you're really saying Russia lost 500,000+ men to control land that does nothing for them that they already had de facto control of.

Ukraine still exists, and removing sanctions isn't going to change Russia's current standing on the world stage as an international pariah and bully. American business isn't going back to Russia anytime soon. Same with most of the EU. The damage is already done and it is permanent.

 

[Hog-train]

Russia already had de facto control of the Donbass prior to the war even starting, so you're really saying Russia lost 500,000+ men to control land that does nothing for them that they already had de facto control of.

Russia didn't have control over the land bridge (southern Ukraine) from Donbas to Crimea. Now they do.

Ukraine still exists, and removing sanctions isn't going to change Russia's current standing on the world stage as an international pariah and bully. American business isn't going back to Russia anytime soon. Same with most of the EU. The damage is already done and it is permanent.

Russia's standing and pariah status didn't get affected when they did this in Chechnya, Georgia and Transnistria. They just controlled the territories from then on and the life went on. Europe started buying oil from Russia and business as usual.

So why the hell would it be any different now? It wouldn't.

The US and/or NATO should keep arming Ukraine for as long as it wants to fight. Just as Biden promised them.

 

[Rational Poster]

Russia didn't have control over the land bridge (southern Ukraine) from Donbas to Crimea. Now they do.



Russia's standing and pariah status didn't get affected when they did this in Chechnya, Georgia and Transnistria. They just controlled the territories from then on and the life went on. Europe started buying oil from Russia and business as usual.

So why the hell would it be any different now? It wouldn't.

The US and/or NATO should keep arming Ukraine for as long as it wants to fight. Just as Biden promised them.

The land bridge to Crimea isn't located in the Donbass.. Hope this helps.


Those previous conflicts are different from the current conflict. The reaction is different, the intensity is different, those places were also so isolated from NATO they couldn't do anything if they wanted.

 

[Strychnine]

 

[filthybliss]

Ukraine isn't in NATO now and is getting plenty of arms. Russia can't control shit in peace time. If they arm, Ukraine will get arms. There's already plans for Rheinmetal to build factories after the war ends.

Russia already had de facto control of the Donbass prior to the war even starting, so you're really saying Russia lost 500,000+ men to control land that does nothing for them that they already had de facto control of.

Ukraine still exists, and removing sanctions isn't going to change Russia's current standing on the world stage as an international pariah and bully. American business isn't going back to Russia anytime soon. Same with most of the EU. The damage is already done and it is permanent.

Wait....are you really saying that Ukraine is going to be "victorious" in a "peace-proposal" treaty brokered by Putin and Trump?

I suspect it will be symmetrical to the Istanbul one. It'll harass Ukraine into demiltarizing itself and make their invasion more smooth in the future. This allows Trump to get his "anti-war" tramp stamp and Putin makes life easier for himself. He already gets zero flak for feeding his people into the meat grinder and he has BRICs to back him.

The world is pretty dichotomized now with Trump being eskimo bros with Putin and Netanyahu. Things can only get worse.

 

[Rational Poster]

Wait....are you really saying that Ukraine is going to be "victorious" in a "peace-proposal" treaty brokered by Putin and Trump?

I suspect it will be symmetrical to the Istanbul one. It'll harass Ukraine into demiltarizing itself.

I don't think peace is actually on the table.

 

[filthybliss]

I don't think peace is actually on the table.

Ok, we can reach common ground there. But I think you are undermining how fucked Ukraine would be in this pretentious "ceasefire" and you are overestimating how much of Russia has crumbled in the context of global standing. It still has China to milk from and mail-order brides to advertise to pump their numbers up. Putin has virtually zero moral compass and that works in his favor here. 500k bodies or even a million mean nothing to him.

 

[Rational Poster]

Ok, we can reach common ground there. But I think you are undermining how fucked Ukraine would be in this pretentious "ceasefire" and you are overestimating how much of Russia has crumbled in the context of global standing. It still has China to milk from and mail-order brides to advertise to pump their numbers up. Putin has virtually zero moral compass and that works in his favor here. 500k bodies or even a million mean nothing to him.

I mean Ukraine isn't in a good position in total victory, they still border Russia, nothing is going to change that geography. Russia made their intentions abundantly clear, they're well known now. There's no going back to pre-war relations this lifetime.

I think you're drastically overestimating the strength of Russia's alliances, if you even want to call it that. I think that's even too strong of a word. Frenemies is probably closer especially when you're talking about China. Whether or not Putin cares about his war dead is irrelevant, their population is already in a demographic death spiral, hundreds of thousands dead even more fleeing the country isn't something that can be undone anytime soon.

China still thinks Russia owes them a lot of Siberia.

 

[SandisLL]

Russia didn't have control over the land bridge (southern Ukraine) from Donbas to Crimea. Now they do.



Russia's standing and pariah status didn't get affected when they did this in Chechnya, Georgia and Transnistria. They just controlled the territories from then on and the life went on. Europe started buying oil from Russia and business as usual.

So why the hell would it be any different now? It wouldn't.

The US and/or NATO should keep arming Ukraine for as long as it wants to fight. Just as Biden promised them.

There is very big difference between Moldova and Ukraine vs Checnya. West in 1991 and 1992 and 1994 th had recognized that Checnya is part of russian federation... so after this all Checnya problems for west officially were russian federation own internal problems....only.


And if to accuse europe everyone is like wall to talk with when is asked why ukraine 32 years in row is allowing transit for russian stuff for Transistria and stuff like Orban and Fico.
With this helping till today for Russia to earn money!
Cos transit fees ofc..plain and simple.

Ukraine easily might cry and accuse bad europe while are helping Russia and all foreign currency reserves they now does have are provided by bad evil Europe.

 

[ViD]

Hopefully for sure. Trump still is a wild card and that’s why Putler is attacking more then ever, 1770 and 1950 casualties last 2 days… beyond insane.

If you believe these numbers, you’re an imbecile

 

[SandisLL]

All terms of any potential peace deal includes Ukraine not ever being part of NATO and an end to sanctions.

So peace deal is: Ukraine no NATO, Russia keeps Donbas, no more sanctions and they have a chance to rebuild. Sounds like a MASSIVE loss for Ukraine to me.



Exactly. Any peace deal (that Trump keeps promising) is a massive loss for Ukraine.

West absolutely doesn't cares about ukraine and never had cared. Mining industry anyway oligarchs and there doesn't matter nationality, such stuff is for crowd.
About sanctions, if russia will keep to do their hybrid war against europe, they will not be completely removed regardless what will happen with ukraine.

Remember how with yelling russia had managed Sweden and Finland to be NATO members...

About Ukr support too...doesn't cares in reality, when next batches with refugees and next threats....then next support packages for ukr a bit.

Level of silent brutality europe does have even putler can't imagine. They were seasoned hardcore occupants even before crusaders era...Yes, after World War 1 and diseases + Great depression they had switched to business mode...
White americans are european occupants offsprings...and europeans 1000 years ago had mastered propaganda how to justify wars and occupations. Pinnacle was Papal Empire.
So russians are apprentices here.....sorry.
Difference is that they had changed but russian kremlin is ...living like 1000-500 years ago.

 

[filthybliss]

I mean Ukraine isn't in a good position in total victory, they still border Russia, nothing is going to change that geography. Russia made their intentions abundantly clear, they're well known now. There's no going back to pre-war relations this lifetime.

I think you're drastically overestimating the strength of Russia's alliances, if you even want to call it that. I think that's even too strong of a word. Frenemies is probably closer especially when you're talking about China. Whether or not Putin cares about his war dead is irrelevant, their population is already in a demographic death spiral, hundreds of thousands dead even more fleeing the country isn't something that can be undone anytime soon.

China still thinks Russia owes them a lot of Siberia.

I hope you are right....I'll just say that. But with the turbulence in the MENA region and Trump starting tariff war with China. Russia has doors open for them to restore themselves.

 

[filthybliss]

If you believe these numbers, you’re an imbecile

Says the dicktard victim blaming Ukraine for resisting an illegal invasion.

 

[filthybliss]

Everyone with brains had tasted that ukr is fucked long ago before war.

For example ykr had cried that Ibamas adm didn't had sold them heavy weapons....later that Biden's administration didn't had sold heavy weapons etc and Germany & Co constantly had maintained policy not to sell heavy weaponary ... and Israel and Switzerland had considered them as russian street. Like this.
If you are huelensky you ofc might still live in dreams ..and de militarize 30+ years in row while easy is to make loud talks and nice dreams...deMilitarized they had with vigor...constantly....30 years in row....

Might be happy that NATO and europe didn't had sent mobile crematoriums and body bags instead of ...this reality....
If russia didn't had barked too much on europe and played idiots, this might had happened...

I can't decipher what exactly that you are saying but I think the U.S. shoulda prioritized Ukraine over Israel aid atleast in 2024.