International Russia/Ukraine Megathread V10

[Hog-train]

Let those who want to fight do so. Let those who wish to not fight either flee or stay in Ukraine and not be obligated to fight. Not everyone is meant for combat, for a variety of reasons.

It's not ideal, but necessary for survival. I was born in South Korea. All males have to serve in the military - no choice and I completely understand it due to the omnipresent North Korean threat.

Same thing with Ukraine. They're defending their land. But they don't necessarily have to be infantry - there are a lot of other functions in the military.

 

[Limbo Pete]

That's good and well, but let those individuals make that decision. It's not as if Ukraine is an independent neutral state with a strong democracy and a people who dictate how the country moves. It's more or less a corrupt proxy state of the West.

I'm not saying it's justified an invasion, I want to be clear about that. Russia is a brutal Oligarchy that doesn't care about the human rights of it's own people, let alone Ukraine's. But I also do not think they would have invaded Ukraine if it was a genuinely neutral state. Why should these men die for a country that isn't really there own in a conflict that has been agitated in part by their own corrupt politicians and the West? The only people that benefit from this are the Western elites who want to bleed out Russia. A bunch of common folk dying for the sins of the elite. Makes me sick on both sides.

As far as Ukraine and their culture and country goes, it's going to go one way or the other at some point, it's just a matter of time. Either they'll go with the West or they'll go with Russia, either way they're going to likely lose most of their identity at some point. That's just the fact of the matter.

"I'm not saying it was right for Russia to attack Ukraine, but they were kind of asking for it wearing such a slutty dress and walking down a dark road at night."

 

[Cole train]

That's good and well, but let those individuals make that decision. It's not as if Ukraine is an independent neutral state with a strong democracy and a people who dictate how the country moves. It's more or less a corrupt proxy state of the West.

I'm not saying it's justified an invasion, I want to be clear about that. Russia is a brutal Oligarchy that doesn't care about the human rights of it's own people, let alone Ukraine's. But I also do not think they would have invaded Ukraine if it was a genuinely neutral state. Why should these men die for a country that isn't really there own in a conflict that has been agitated in part by their own corrupt politicians and the West? The only people that benefit from this are the Western elites who want to bleed out Russia. A bunch of common folk dying for the sins of the elite. Makes me sick on both sides.

As far as Ukraine and their culture and country goes, it's going to go one way or the other at some point, it's just a matter of time. Either they'll go with the West or they'll go with Russia, either way they're going to likely lose most of their identity at some point. That's just the fact of the matter.

Think all countries aligned with west still have identitys intact?

French are french , germans are germans and brits are still brits and have no teeth

 

[The XL]

"I'm not saying it was right for Russia to attack Ukraine, but they were kind of asking for it wearing such a slutty dress and walking down a dark road at night."

I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying this is how the world works. The West knows that, as does the Ukrainian government. They fucked around and found out, and now a whole lot of innocent people are going to suffer, mostly Ukrainian conscripts and civilians and Russian conscripts. Everyone is an agitator and an escalator, no one is actually interested in a solution. Ukraine is unfortunately the battle ground for NATO and Russia to play their games.

 

[Anewt]

I have some sympathy with being against conscription for an invading force - Muhammad Ali not wanting to go to Vietnam, for example - but I don't have sympathy for people being unwilling to defend their own nation from an aggressor trying to roll through with tanks and artillery.

Even if you don't care much for your leaders, and you think they're steering you wrong, those are your democratically elected leaders, and they can be removed - an aggressive occupation by another nation that do not sure democratic ideals is a far worse scenario, and even if you think 'war is not worth dying for', freedom - and specifically not being oppressed by ultra aggressive extremists that are prepared to invade your nation in the first place - absolutely is, in my opinion.

That doesn't mean you're going to run to the front of the queue and grab a rifle at the first sign of aggression, but it should mean you're prepared to answer the call if needed.

All my opinion, of course.

I'll never be on-board with conscription regardless the invaders or defenders.

I'd never force a man into actions that risks his life to save another. Even if I believe it's the right thing to do and I'd be happy to take the risk.

I most definitely wouldn't force a man to risk his life for a government/ country.

All my opinion of course.

 

[The XL]

Think all countries aligned with west still have identitys intact?

French are french , germans are germans and brits are still brits and have no teeth

None of those countries are in any real danger of being ping ponged around by two superpowers like Ukraine is. Ukraine isn't going to have a country when this is said and done, let alone a culture. So much death, loss of infrastructure and wealth. And while they will eventually have to more or less pick a side, it will likely never be formally like via NATO, which will lead to the never threat of invasion. I'm sure the West is going to ask them to pay them back for everything they've gotten in this war too, which will lead to Ukraine and it's people being even poorer.

These poor people are fucked either way. The only shot they have is being an actual neutral country which will likely never happen. They fucked up by giving away their nukes.

 

[The XL]

It's not ideal, but necessary for survival. I was born in South Korea. All males have to serve in the military - no choice and I completely understand it due to the omnipresent North Korean threat.

Same thing with Ukraine. They're defending their land. But they don't necessarily have to be infantry - there are a lot of other functions in the military.

If they're interested in survival, they have to eventually make peace with Russia and maintain real neutrality. They are absolutely fucked long term if that doesn't happen. The fact of the matter is, they're never going to be in NATO and Russia will never stop so long as they feel like Ukraine is in bed with the West.

 

[AWilder]

I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying this is how the world works. The West knows that, as does the Ukrainian government. They fucked around and found out, and now a whole lot of innocent people are going to suffer, mostly Ukrainian conscripts and civilians and Russian conscripts. Everyone is an agitator and an escalator, no one is actually interested in a solution. Ukraine is unfortunately the battle ground for NATO and Russia to play their games.

The fucked around? Dude, they were trying to get away from Russian influence and the offer from the west is far more appealing than what Russia is offering. Would you rather live in Russia or literally anywhere in the west?

 

[Limbo Pete]

I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying this is how the world works. The West knows that, as does the Ukrainian government. They fucked around and found out, and now a whole lot of innocent people are going to suffer, mostly Ukrainian conscripts and civilians and Russian conscripts. Everyone is an agitator and an escalator, no one is actually interested in a solution. Ukraine is unfortunately the battle ground for NATO and Russia to play their games.

Ukraine fucked around and found out lolololololol
Everyone is an agitator good lord
You're checking every bothesides apologist box across the board today duder

 

[The XL]

The fucked around? Dude, they were trying to get away from Russian influence and the offer from the west is far more appealing than what Russia is offering. Would you rather live in Russia or literally anywhere in the west?

Obviously in the West. But in reality considering their geography, this was never going to be allowed to happen. All parties knew it too.

 

[The XL]

Ukraine fucked around and found out lolololololol
Everyone is an agitator good lord
You're checking every bothesides apologist box across the board today duder

Not everyone has to be on a side. I despite the governments of all parties involved. It's low IQ to see everything as black and white, especially on the global scale. None of these guys are good guys.

 

[curryjunkie]

Obviously in the West. But in reality considering their geography, this was never going to be allowed to happen. All parties knew it too.

say russia was where canada is now, and invaded and taken washington, wyoming , minnesota, and the dakotas, would you run to mexico?

 

[Anewt]

Would you defend your house from invaders, or would you happily sign away the deeds and give them legal authority?

I mean, your governor might be an incomprehensible twat, but I'm still sure you wouldn't just give your house to someone because they're shoving a gun in your face.

Would you force someone to defend their own house?

 

[Limbo Pete]

Not everyone has to be on a side. I despite the governments of all parties involved. It's low IQ to see everything as black and white, especially on the global scale. None of these guys are good guys.

You're not on a side, but you think Ukraine fucked around and found out, that the war is a NATO proxy fight, and that Russia just wants Ukraine to be "neutral"? Yeah, you're parroting Russian apologist nonsense lol but you're not on a side. I will say though that nobody is going to mistake you for being on Ukraine's side, that's for sure lmao.

 

[The XL]

say russia was where canada is now, and invaded and taken washington, wyoming , minnesota, and the dakotas, would you run to mexico?

Let's flip that around. If Canada was a proxy state for Russia, do you seriously believe we wouldn't invade it?

 

[The XL]

You're not on a side, but you think Ukraine fucked around and found out, that the war is a NATO proxy fight, and that Russia just wants Ukraine to be "neutral"? Yeah, you're parroting Russian apologist nonsense lol but you're not on a side. I will say though that nobody is going to mistake you for being on Ukraine's side, that's for sure lmao.

All of those things can be true and I can still not be on a side. Ukraine did fuck around and find out. This war is a NATO/Russia proxy fight. I don't know if Russia wants Ukraine to be neutral, but they would likely tolerate it. I am not on a side. Why would I be? I despise all parties involved and all the common folk dying at the whims of all of these elites.

 

[Limbo Pete]

All of those things can be true and I can still not be on a side. Ukraine did fuck around and find out. This war is a NATO/Russia proxy fight. I don't know if Russia wants Ukraine to be neutral, but they would likely tolerate it. I am not on a side. Why would I be? I despise all parties involved and all the common folk dying at the whims of all of these elites.

 

[Deleted member 585708]

Would you force someone to defend their own house?

If there are far wider implications, then quite possibly, yes.

If an entire street/village/town/city is being threatened, I would very likely shove some form of weapon in their hands and ask them to take part in the defence.

If they refused, it would be hard to let them take part in the same society once it had been defended.

It's an unrealistic scenario, but expectations would be very high.

 

[Cid]

That's good and well, but let those individuals make that decision. It's not as if Ukraine is an independent neutral state with a strong democracy and a people who dictate how the country moves. It's more or less a corrupt proxy state of the West.

I'm not saying it's justified an invasion, I want to be clear about that. Russia is a brutal Oligarchy that doesn't care about the human rights of it's own people, let alone Ukraine's. But I also do not think they would have invaded Ukraine if it was a genuinely neutral state. Why should these men die for a country that isn't really there own in a conflict that has been agitated in part by their own corrupt politicians and the West? The only people that benefit from this are the Western elites who want to bleed out Russia. A bunch of common folk dying for the sins of the elite. Makes me sick on both sides.

As far as Ukraine and their culture and country goes, it's going to go one way or the other at some point, it's just a matter of time. Either they'll go with the West or they'll go with Russia, either way they're going to likely lose most of their identity at some point. That's just the fact of the matter.

What is this said agitation?

Russia has been invading countries at a rate of every 3 years for the last 3 decades. How many invasions does it take for you people to respect a foreign countries perfectly reasonable right to ensure their sovereignty?

20?
30?
40?

How many countries does Russia have to invade before you'll acknowledge that joining NATO is a self preservation measure and not an agitation?

 

[Deleted member 585708]

I'll never be on-board with conscription regardless the invaders or defenders.

I'd never force a man into actions that risks his life to save another. Even if I believe it's the right thing to do and I'd be happy to take the risk.

I most definitely wouldn't force a man to risk his life for a government/ country.

All my opinion of course.

You're entitled to your opinion.

Of course, conscription isn't just about fighting, it's about doing your bit to the best of your abilities in the name of defence.

Simply giving a dork a gun in a dangerous situation is sad state of affairs, but that all depends on how imminent and immediate the danger is.

There's no reason they can't be doing a different job.

What's the stat, it takes 5 people per every soldier?