Running + increasing vertical jump

rEdShawks

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So as most of you know, i love to go running, and go about 5 times a week on average 4 miles a day

However, i recently convinced myself that i also want to increase my vertical jump, i now have one of the best recommended books for doing that, the vertical jump bible.

Now the question i cannot find an answer to anywhere
Will vertical jump training interfere with my running. Some people on the internet say (i have no idea if they are right) that since running is slow twitch and vertical jump is fast, i wont make any gains on either, and will just cancel out the progress on each. Others say it should only affect my jump by cm's. while some argue its not a problem

I already am pretty skinny so there is no need for me to lose extra bodyweight.

So sherdog has a smart group of posters, so i want to see the general consecus to my question,
and hopefully i can figure out the answer
thankyou
 
Of course it's not impossible to improve both at the same time. Nonetheless it is a "problem" in that you are training two non-complementary abilities.
 
so what ure saying, is i shouldnt train both at the same time, since both cant be improved at the same time. but how bout if i train my vert for lets say 3 months then go back to running after that for 3 months. will that improve both, or be the biggest waste of time and energy?
 
I had a cousin that was very good at basketball that swore by running to increase vertical jump. He ran sprints and long distances. He also lifted a lot of weights, so it's hard to tell what caused him to jump so high, but the dude was like 5'9'' and from a running start put one hand on top of the square on a basketball backboard.
 
Here is how you increase vertical jump: Practice jumping; squat jumps, box jumps, drop box jumps, plyometrics, oly lifting.

Rock solid science for you is that running will only increase your vertical jump if you lose fat from it. Improving your ability to vertical jump (or explosively develop power in your lower extremity) through plyometrics will IMPROVE YOUR RUNNING. It will make your tendons less elastic, so your muscles will have to do less work to make your bones move.
 
Of course it's not impossible to improve both at the same time. Nonetheless it is a "problem" in that you are training two non-complementary abilities.

WRONG.

Running alone will cause a decrease in vertical jump due to a decrease in muscle cross sectional area. Vertical jump training with continued distance running WILL improve BOTH.
 
Here is how you increase vertical jump: Practice jumping; squat jumps, box jumps, drop box jumps, plyometrics, oly lifting.

Rock solid science for you is that running will only increase your vertical jump if you lose fat from it. Improving your ability to vertical jump (or explosively develop power in your lower extremity) through plyometrics will IMPROVE YOUR RUNNING. It will make your tendons less elastic, so your muscles will have to do less work to make your bones move.

thanx for the advice, anyone who wants to know more should dfinately check out the vertical jump bible. The thing about ure 1st point is , that i already have like slightly under 10% bodyfat, so i dont know if me losing more fat will help me. and thankx for the rest of ure advice
 
WRONG.

Running alone will cause a decrease in vertical jump due to a decrease in muscle cross sectional area. Vertical jump training with continued distance running WILL improve BOTH.

c this is why its so hard to figure out the truth, cause it seems like on every discussion board about vertical jump, there is many disagreements
 
At a low level of training (i.e. you're just getting into vertical jump training) running a few miles a day is not that big of a deal. Your explosiveness and vertical jumping ability largely comes from your CNS abilities, percentage of slow twitch/fast twitch, strength of tendons and connective tissue etc. and a 20-30 minute run at a moderate pace isn't enough to really negatively impact any of these things in a beginner, or someone who is new to explosive development and vertical jump training.

If you were at a very high level, or talking about running 40-50 miles per week, then yes your training would be impacted by your running, but at this stage and only 4 miles a day I wouldn't be too worried about it.

Anyone who is arguing that 4 miles per day is going to kill your vertical jump obviously never watches the NBA. All those athletes get far more aerobic work than you'll get in your 4 miles per day and it obvoiusly doesn't keep them from having some of the best vertical jumps in all of sports.

And yes vertical jump training could improve your running to some extent but you'd also want to include more horizontal plyos instead of just vertical if that was your goal.

WRONG.

Running alone will cause a decrease in vertical jump due to a decrease in muscle cross sectional area. Vertical jump training with continued distance running WILL improve BOTH.

This statement is not very accurate. Running 4 miles per day is unlikely to cause you to lose any real muscle mass unless you're eating next to no protein and doing no weight bearing activities whatsoever. Also, vertical jump has much less to do with muscle cross sectional area than it does with how well developed the nervous system is. Bodybuilders can barely get off the ground and high jumpers aren't exactly the most muscular athletes. The statement Dan's Knuckles made about tendons becoming less elastic through plyometrics is also backwards, it makes them MORE elastic but it has much more to do with the fascial tissue than the tendons themselves.
 
WRONG.

Running alone will cause a decrease in vertical jump due to a decrease in muscle cross sectional area. Vertical jump training with continued distance running WILL improve BOTH.

I don't even see how this contradicts what I said, but I'm sure you are right.
 
At a low level of training (i.e. you're just getting into vertical jump training) running a few miles a day is not that big of a deal. Your explosiveness and vertical jumping ability largely comes from your CNS abilities, percentage of slow twitch/fast twitch, strength of tendons and connective tissue etc. and a 20-30 minute run at a moderate pace isn't enough to really negatively impact any of these things in a beginner, or someone who is new to explosive development and vertical jump training.

If you were at a very high level, or talking about running 40-50 miles per week, then yes your training would be impacted by your running, but at this stage and only 4 miles a day I wouldn't be too worried about it.

Anyone who is arguing that 4 miles per day is going to kill your vertical jump obviously never watches the NBA. All those athletes get far more aerobic work than you'll get in your 4 miles per day and it obvoiusly doesn't keep them from having some of the best vertical jumps in all of sports.

And yes vertical jump training could improve your running to some extent but you'd also want to include more horizontal plyos instead of just vertical if that was your goal.



This statement is not very accurate. Running 4 miles per day is unlikely to cause you to lose any real muscle mass unless you're eating next to no protein and doing no weight bearing activities whatsoever. Also, vertical jump has much less to do with muscle cross sectional area than it does with how well developed the nervous system is. Bodybuilders can barely get off the ground and high jumpers aren't exactly the most muscular athletes. The statement Dan's Knuckles made about tendons becoming less elastic through plyometrics is also backwards, it makes them MORE elastic but it has much more to do with the fascial tissue than the tendons themselves.

THANKYOU very much, your answer will help me alot

:icon_chee
 
This statement is not very accurate. Running 4 miles per day is unlikely to cause you to lose any real muscle mass unless you're eating next to no protein and doing no weight bearing activities whatsoever. Also, vertical jump has much less to do with muscle cross sectional area than it does with how well developed the nervous system is. Bodybuilders can barely get off the ground and high jumpers aren't exactly the most muscular athletes. The statement Dan's Knuckles made about tendons becoming less elastic through plyometrics is also backwards, it makes them MORE elastic but it has much more to do with the fascial tissue than the tendons themselves.

Look, continued distance running if you continually push for improvement will cause a decrease in muscle CSA in order to increase capillary density. My statement about muscle elasticity is not backwards. The tendons will become less elastic, this causes an increase in running efficiency because less energy is lost to tissue deformation during muscle contraction (I believe there was an article published about this in the NSCA journal). Less tendon stretch equals less work by the muscle for the same ammount of joing movement.

I will not argue that most body builders don't develop the motor firing patterns to explode up, but their training regimen is also geared towards slow and heavy lifts, your max power is at about 70% of speed, 70% of power. So, yes, plyos and explosive lifts are the way to go for improving vertical jump height, as I said.

Why are you talking about fascial tissues, they have NOTHING to do with strength, speed, power, or endurance. Fascial tissue doesn't change with training.

A lot of training information on this board is contradictory because many people don't know what they are talking about, there is a lot of misinformation out there. I don't mean to insult anybody, but it irks me when people put incorrect information out there.
 
Welcome back, Dan.

I always look forward to when Dan makes his infrequent stops in the forums to bitch slap misinformation. :icon_chee
 
Thanks, I try when I can. I had more free time than usual as I was duped into doing my civic duty and serving as a potential juror for my peers.
 
so whos right? dan the man or eza? any proofs or anything?

btw thankx anyways to both of u, u both have provided ne with important info
 
The TS was talking about 4-5 miles of running, this is hardly marathon type volumes and not enough to cause any significant decrease in muscle mass provided any resistance training is being done and protein intake is adaquate. Like I said in my original post, how do you explain NBA players getting far more aerobic work than that and still being muscular and being extremely explosive in their jumping ability?

Sure if you do huge volume of distance work you won't maintain a lot of muscle, but this is not because the body decreases CSA in order to increase capillary density, that's simply not how adapation works. It happens because a high volume of aerobic work is essentially catabolic and suppresses hormonal production so if you do no strength traning whatsoever to stimulate increased protein syntheis you'll end up with less muscle mass. But this doesn't mean the body gets rid of muscle tissue purposefully to increase capilary density. Practically speaking, the TS isn't going to lose a bunch of muscle from running 20-30 minutes a day.

The whole thing about aerobic training leading to you losing all your muscle mass has become totally overblown over the last few years. There are plenty of athletes with tremendous aerobic conditioning, including plenty in MMA, who also have a good amount of muscle. Verkhoshansky's programs for speed-strength sports always start with a block that aim to "increase peripheral vascular reactions and cardiac cavities" i.e. aerobic work, and maximum strength at the same time. Unless you are doing a large volume of aerobic work it is not going to cause you to lose all your muscle mass as many people seem to be saying these days.

As far as tendon elasticity, your original statement that plyometrics decrease tendon elasticity would mean that the tendons would actually contribute less elastic energy after plyometric training, is this really what you meant? How exactly are you defining elasticity? I can assure you that stiffer tendons DO NOT lead to an improvement in running economy. Plyometric training increases mechanical efficiency by improving the storage and utilization of elastic energy through the series elastic component (SEC), which is composed primarily of the tendonous complex and certain contractile components within the muscle itself.

One of the fundamental roles of plyometric traning and adaptations is the increase of the contribution of elastic energy this is how the contractile components of the muscle are able to do less work, because the elastic energy is contributing more to the total work being done. It is the combination of tissue deformation and mechanical stiffness that contributes to the elastic recoil of the stretch-shortening cycle. The greater change in length of the tendon means greater storage and utilization of elastic energy and less work done by the contractile components of the muscle.

"Less tendon stretch equals less work done by the muscle" is also oversimplistic and backwards. Because tendinous tissue is viscoelastic by nature the rate of stretch, total length of stretch, and the mechanical stiffness of the tissue all contribute to the elastic energy stored and released through SSC actions. The tissue deformation you are talking about actually leads to GREATER mechanical efficiency, not energy loss. The study posted below provides greater detail on this and contradicts your principle statement.

Notice that in the study the greatest mechanical efficiency occured when the change in tendon length was the greatest, not when it was the least as you have suggested. Tendon deformation and muscular work done are not linearly related as you stated either. A more compliant tendon, i.e. more elastic, means a greater change in length in the tendon relative to the fascicles, thus the two are actually inversely related.

CASE STUDY: IN VIVO ASSESSMENT OF MUSCLE‐TENDON UNIT KINETICS AND KINEMATICS IN RELATION TO MECHANICAL EFFICIENCY DURING JUMPING * (Biochemistry/Neuromuscular)
Andrea M. Dayne., Jeffrey M. McBride, Charles L. Dumke, N.Travis Triplett, James L. Nuzzo, and Michael A. Israetel Appalachian State University, Department of Health, Leisure & Exercise Science, Neuromuscular Laboratory, Boone, NC

PURPOSE: To determine the relationship between muscle‐tendon unit kinetics and kinematics and mechanical efficiency (ME) during various types of vertical jumping. ME has been reported to increase with increasing muscle pre‐activity and activity during the eccentric phase of a vertical jump. This increase in muscle activity is induced by increasing pre‐load
via a stretch‐shortening cycle (SSC) during a countermovement jump (CMJ) or drop jump (DJ). The observed increase in ME is thought to be a product of changes in muscle‐tendon unit kinetics and kinematics. While a number of investigations have examined ME or muscle‐tendon unit kinetics and kinematics during vertical jumping separately, none have investigated these two issues simultaneously.

METHODS: One recreationally weight‐trained male subject participated in one testing session. The subject performed 30 continuous repetitions of maximal static jumps (SJ), CMJs, and DJs from 125% of maximal CMJ height (125DJ). Muscle fascicle length change, tendon length change, patellar tendon force, and ground reaction forces were compared during eccentric and concentric phases of the jumps. ME was calculated from a combination of force‐time curves, displacement‐time curves and lactate‐corrected oxygen consumption values. Electromyography (EMG) of the vastus lateralis (VL) was also measured for each jump pattern in this investigation. Fascicle length of the VL was determined from real‐time ultrasonography. Patellar tendon force (PTF) and patellar length change (PTL) was determined utilizing an in vivo optic fiber technique.

RESULTS: ME was found to be 29.5% for SJ, 38.2% for CMJ, and 30.2% for 125DJ. Jump height was greatest in CMJ at 0.561m, followed by 0.480m (SJ) and 0.444m (125DJ). The greatest PTF and patellar tendon length change also occurred during the CMJ. PTF for
both the eccentric and concentric phases of each jump was 5640N and 5661N for SJ, 6838N and 7191 for CMJ, and 5243N and 5673N for 125DJ. The tendon continued to lengthen into the concentric phase of the vertical jump for all jump conditions. The greatest muscle fascicle length for each jump condition was 35.97cm SJ, 29.37cm for CMJ, and 20.93cm for 125DJ. Coincidentally, it was observed that PTL was maximized and fascicle length change was minimized as ME increased from SJ to CMJ. Conversely, it was found that during decreased ME (CMJ to DJ), tendon length change was minimized and fascicle length change maximized. Peak ground reaction forces in the eccentric and concentric phases were 1654N and 1934N for SJ, 1846N and 1974N for CMJ, and 2562N and 2552N for 125DJ. Average integrated EMG activity for the eccentric and concentric phases were 0.34mV and 1.94mV for SJ, 2.10mV and 2.30mV for CMJ, and 4.03mV and 4.29mV for 125DJ.

CONCLUSION: These findings suggest that increased ME may be related to maximal
tendon length change
with minimal fascicle length change during SSC activities. This may be due to optimal usage of stored elastic energy in the tendon during the eccentric phase of the movement, thus resulting in increased performance.

PRACTICAL APPLICATION: Plyometric training that utilizes the SSC, such as CMJs, may lead to increased concentric muscle activity and increased ME. Therefore, including the SSC in training may assist in improving economy in running and jumping.

You are also missing that SEC stiffness/compliance plays a large role in phase of activation and timing of the concentric actions in SSC movements and that there will also be a difference between adaptations that lead to maximum economy and maximum power. Repetive effort plyometrics will lead to an improvement in maximum economy, single max effort shock method type work will lead to an improvement in maximum power.

"The major difference in the activation conditions for optimal power as opposed to efficiency are that the duty cycle is greater and the phase of activation is earlier for maximising power output. Increasing the relative compliance of the SEE(SEC) allows a muscle to activate earlier in the stretch
 
Case studies are a lower form of scientific research as there is no control or randomization.

Yes, the reason a drop jump produces greater height is that a it allows for greater force production time. This doesn't change the physiologic adaptation to plyometricsm (decreased tendon elasticity). When you are explosively creating force you do not want the extra time, you need to do it immediately.

As for the NBA example, they do almost no straight aerobic cardio. They do sprints. Anaerobic sprints. Sprints do improve explosiveness and power production. Just follow the SAID principle.
 
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