Rolling with a much stronger opponent

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by IRENICUS, Jan 7, 2006.

  1. IRENICUS

    IRENICUS Purple Belt

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    I've watched MMA for some years and because I like the grappling part a lot and I roll with friends from time to time(I don't go to grappling gyms, there aren't that many in Romania). They don't watch MMA(or grappling) so I tap them in seconds.
    But...
    Today I rolled(no gi,usual sport clothes) with a friend that doesn't know anything about grappling but watches WWE a lot. I'm about 68kg and he's about 95kg, same height as I am (5' 11). Having no knowledge about subs, he was very easy to catch. First armbar from mount but no way he would tap. He said it wasn't hurting him a bit though I was applying pressure as much as I could. So I turned into a triangle choke which seemed to have some effect on him but he picked me up and slammed me. I let go just at the right time before he could powerbomb me like Rampage-Arona(though I didn't let him join his hands when picking me up. He kinda did that with his back muscles). Also an armbar from the guard - again he picked me up and dropped me. Tried kimura from guard and that was the most useless. His hand was stronger than both of mine and it wouldn't move a bit. Tried omoplata too but with the same result.
    After all that he just made a bully choke while in my guard and I had to tap very fast(I think my neck would have snapped in a few seconds). He also grabbed my leg by brute-force and put in an ankle lock (from wrestling, Kurt Angle) which I escaped. After that he also got me in a wrestling bear hug(hug with full force) and again I had to tap as I felt my bones would brake. Very frustrating. Lost twice on 2 brute force subs I've never seen in a grappling match.

    After that I asked him to let me put a rear naked choke on him and see if he could escape that as well. He couldn't(though I had to apply lots of pressure and many seconds had to pass till he was really feeling it). But I'm almost certain a RNC couldn't be applied to him without him letting me(the guy has a neck like a bull, kinda like Coleman).

    Did you guys ever experienced something like this? A guy you catch in a pretty clean sub but who can just brute force himself out of it? Any advice on what I could catch him with?
    I know the weight difference is there, but a clean sub should be enough and still....it's not
     
  2. carabreaker

    carabreaker Blue Belt

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    If you apply an armbar properly and extend the arm the person will feel it. It is not just a matter of putting someone in an armbar you have to have good, and crisp tecnique, triangle choke is the same thing if a choke is applied properly he should really feel it, that does not mean that he will not pick you up and slam you.
     
  3. Ybot

    Ybot Purple Belt

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    This is more of a grappling forum question, but you might get flamed if you ask it in there because this question has been done to death there. Search the grappling forum for in debth replys on this, but I'll give y0ou my 2 cents too.

    For me it all comes down to the following equation: Your technique + strength/size (often go together) + conditioning vs. their technique + stregth/size + conditioning

    You can make up for a lack of one thing with a surplus of another. obviously this guy had the size/strength advantage to take you though you may have had the technique advantage (there are a couple of things you could have done if you knew how to finish this guy with every sub you tried, for example underhooking the leg durring the triangle so he couldn't lift you off the mat).
     
  4. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    See the thing is, that you don't actually train. YOu know what the subs look like, but from the sounds of things, you can't apply them properly. Thins like bear hugs and chokes from in your guard shouldn't work or be enough for you to tap.

    For example, if you had him in a straight armbar from the mount, I can't see how it wouldn't hurt him enough to tap, it's easy to break. Same with the triangle, if you're trained to apply it, the guy should be going to sleep.

    I learned this when I started training bjj. I had wrestled and watche dMMA for a long time, but when I rolled with people who knew what they were doing, I realized I didn't know the first thig about how to apply a submission properly and get the tap out. I would suggest that this is your problem, not that your friend is larger.
     
  5. Jiu-Jitsu Cop

    Jiu-Jitsu Cop Green Belt

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    I agree with what everyone is saying. You are watching the MMA matches but do not know how the technique is applied. I have fought people who can muscle their way through some holds. You need to fake a move in order to draw your opponent out and submitt him with a different hold. This may be hard to do since you may not have alot of holds.

    Go to KibunInc.com
     
  6. OwwTapTap

    OwwTapTap White Belt

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    I totally agree.......... before I even got done reading your actual post I thought the same as all the others that maybe your not applying them correctly. Reason I thought this was because for awhile I was usually the stronger bigger guy and I could power out of alot of things BUT the guys who had more experience could still catch me on things and it was because everything was applied so tightly and everything that I would have to tap. Those armbars your friends gets out of for example..............I believe you hes a big guy but without even seeing him I can assure you that his one arm is NOT stronger than both yours AND your back muscles. Armbar him and pop your hips INTO his arm (slowly)and stretch yourself back then wait for the Tap!
     
  7. Soulfly

    Soulfly Guest

    It's definetly tough fighting against stronger opponents, especially no gi. Make good use of power 1/2 nelsons and the guard position. (I weigh between 55kg to 60kg and I roll with a few friends for fun outside of my usual training. One of which is about 6'2 and 75kg, and two others around my height (5'6) but weighing about 100kg.)
    I found the same problem that you had - it's impossible to apply kimuras and americanas on them. Concentrate on reversals like the windmill sweep from guard and try to get a knee on belly position. Standard armlocks like jujigatame work best because you can put all of your body's muscles to use against their one arm. Your next best bet would to try to get backmount and sink in a RNC or jujigatame.
     
  8. Mike.D

    Mike.D Guest

    Im used to it because im small for my age.But ive never had anyone power themselves out of my holds.I always have to let go before they black out.But there was this one incident were this guy lifted me up but we were praticing standing headlocks so it is kinda acceptable.Another time this guy tackled me in a match when i had him in a bulgarian clich lifted me up and slammed me put poor asshole landed straight in my guard and got tapped to a guillotine.
     
  9. 350 lbs fist

    350 lbs fist Black Belt

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    Even great technical subs can be powered out from if your freakishly strong enough.

    John Olav Einemo once told me about a grappling match he had with a 140 kilo judo guy who was all muscle and he got the armbar and laid back fully extending the arm only to experience the incredible of being biceps curled up again by this huge guy!
    So it can happen to anyone no matter the skill.

    Size and strength does matter.
     
  10. thecas

    thecas Blue Belt

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    Omoplata did not work? In Omo you are using your legs and practically whole body vs their one arm, more so than armbar. Royce could win Akebono, so shld b no problem.
     
  11. IRENICUS

    IRENICUS Purple Belt

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    Thanks guys, all your answers have been to the point. I think you are right about the hips, I think I didn't use them enough when applying pressure on the arm. I'm almost 100% leglocks and guillotine don't work on him, but armbars, triangle,rnc and omoplata should do the trick if I apply them right..
    I will practice more and also go to a grappling gym if I find one here.
     
  12. krellik

    krellik Gimli son of Cisco

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    say what leglocks dont work on him??! explain?
     
  13. SoulWound666

    SoulWound666 KWJR

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    ^ Yeah, I went from wrestling into mma and submission wrestling (no gi jiu jitsu) training and realized quickly that I didn't know a whole lot in terms of the subtlties of finishing submissions. As SSR suggested, you may want to try to go to some classes so you can learn the finer points of finshing some submissions.
     
  14. flyingknee16

    flyingknee16 Brown Belt

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    i understand your frustration.

    i had 1 yr of experience in bjj and this guy who literally had maybe months of bjj but a year of good wrestling (and high school football) but was VERY strong gaev me such a hard time and he kept kicking my ass. it did make me feel bad that a muscle head like him could kick my ass without much technique. but just keep training. and you'll get better. now against this muscle head i can always tap him out.
     
  15. Resident A-hole

    Resident A-hole Orange Belt

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    A big part of applying effective submissions is controlling your opponent's body while you work the sub, so he can't pick you up, roll out, etc. That is the part the casual observer doesn't notice when watching MMA.BJJ, etc. It will all come with training.
     
  16. OpethDrums

    OpethDrums Banned Banned

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    i wrestled a dude that i couldnt rnc because his neck was so big.
     

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