Rolling strictly for the tap (The other side)

[Trickster***]

I agree with what Eddie says in this video...

YouTube - Eddie Bravo On: the Ego and the Evolution of Jiu Jitsu

Towards the end of the video where he says you work half your techniques (offense) on the weaker guys "Work on the weaker guys, PREY on them - for your offense. And work your defense on the stronger (better) guys."

I only bring this up bc yesterday there as a post about "Strictly going for the Tap" and only myself and one other person disagreed with the TS (and everyone else who replied) saying that you shouldnt let go of a submission....you should finish it if you get it.

I feel exactly how Eddie described it....practice offense on the weak and defense on the strong...thats how it should be! THAT is really helping everyone get better! You have all heard the expression "If you want to be the best, you train with the best" So why let people out of submissions? Let them get tapped 99 times but learn to escape on the 100th....THAT is how people truely get better...........TOUGH LOVE!!

**I am not talking about picking on lil kids/teenagers or woman - Im talking weaker as in...the same size just inferior skill**

On the otherhand (bc I am a white belt) I expect to roll with my instructor and the purple belts and get my ass handed to me....I expect to tap out vs them, and ya know what...I dont want them letting me out of things bc that would build a false sense of security!

Anyway I just wanted to show the other side of this argument....except Eddie says it better!

 

[Slithers]

marcelo says different

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think of it this way...

you want to roll FOR the tap, but still roll intelligently. Now if you catch someone in a submission, instead of fighting mercilessly for the tap, let him use an escape. By letting him escape you can practice your counter attacks. By always fighting for the tap on the first sub you catch, you neglect your counter attacks game.

 

[hayliks]

I didn't post in the other thread, but I have trained the same way since day 1, and it has always been about learning BJJ. I feel that getting the tap is important, but doing what you can that leads to tapping your opponent is 1000x's more important. I've been catching a number of black belts lately and I base that much more on my positional dominance and their urgency to escape rather than my focus on tapping them. Which is really what I think bjj is all about.

 

[hayliks]

If I'm rolling against somebody better than myself and he has me in poor positions, I focus all of my attention on what I need to do to escape to improve my position to avoid his attacks, the last thing on my mind is going for some crazy submission from a crap position, I have the time to learn those later, learning those now will lead to bad habits.

 

[NJrocks]

I like to roll with better guys to see where i'm making mistakes, with less skilled guys to test out new moves i've learned and such, and guys my level to push myself as far as i can be pushed.

 

[StudentLoan]

Think of your own thread titles!

Eddie puts it well but I think what Marcelo says takes into account the different learning curves some people may have. Cheers!

 

[SLaKKJaW]

Both great philosophies, in my opinion. And they both have a place in your training. Or should, anyway.

Eddie's is more a matter of fact. You can only run over someone offensively if they're weak. But do it! Use that time to tighten up your game. Use it to develop that muscle memory. But be thankful to those guys for sacrificing themselves to you. Teach -them- what to tighten up on defensively. Don't just tap them over and over and run along to the next easy mark. Go over with them what to work on. Drill with them a bit of defense. If you break their spirit, they'll quit. And even from a purely selfish point of view, you don't want them to quit. You want to be able to run clinics on them to work on your offense.

Marcelo's philosophy fits perfectly into this concept as well. Just think of it as still being an offensive clinic, but instead of a tap being the goal, you're looking for a transition. YOU know you could have tapped them. Maybe they do too. But you can also work with them, in a realm of your own control, what you'd come up with against someone who isn't so weak. This way, when you do face someone strong, someone good at the game and they defend... you already know right where you want to go next.

 

[TheHighlander]

If I'm rolling against somebody better than myself and he has me in poor positions, I focus all of my attention on what I need to do to escape to improve my position to avoid his attacks, the last thing on my mind is going for some crazy submission from a crap position, I have the time to learn those later, learning those now will lead to bad habits.

Since it's very hard to escape from an established position against somebody more skilled, I like use unorthodox submissions to set up my escape attempt. If I finish the submission that's fine, but my primary focus is to open the game up a little so that I can hit my escape while they are reacting/defending or transitioning to a different position.

However, when I teach I focus on the basic escapes and having students know them reflexively and have them start the escape before the position is fully established. I do teach some unorthodox submissions but only low-risk ones that don't detract from the positioning game.

 

[Nick Kilian]

This point of view of not finishing on people is from the strongest man view. When I am rolling with a better guy I don't want to be cheated of that roll and him let me do things I would normally not be able to do.

How am I going to learn when people are going 50% on me? You got to feel the heat in order to remember that feeling and know its coming and know not to get into it beforehand.

 

[Trickster***]

marcelo says different

think of it this way...

you want to roll FOR the tap, but still roll intelligently. Now if you catch someone in a submission, instead of fighting mercilessly for the tap, let him use an escape. By letting him escape you can practice your counter attacks. By always fighting for the tap on the first sub you catch, you neglect your counter attacks game.

I agree with that 100% but Im also only training 5 months so for now Im still learning to finish...once I get that down I will concentrate more on transition - Thanks nice post!

Think of your own thread titles!

Highlander and Slakkjaw - nice point of views also!

I Personally like both Eddie and Marcelo's point of view and I think they both have their place in the learning curve BUT at different levels. I think it IS essential to learn to FINISH locks (and this has nothing to do with EGO btw I tap out all the time in class and Im NOT looking to feed my ego by getting taps) BUT I also think its essential to learn to transition but that will more down the road....maybe for me, blue belt? Or when I feel comfortable with the first sub!

Thanks for posting!

 

[Tony Manifold]

Eddie also talks about expanding your game against the weak. The TS in the other thread was talking more about guys that are trying to win all the time. They use their go to move. every time because they can get the tap with it. Eddie also talks about guys that think it is "abu dhabi every night at practice".

let me put it this way. I have a pretty solid arm triangle. I can tap out a fair percentage of people + or - my level from mount, side, guard, even half guard. Now I could roll and use that every time and I would get a fair about of taps. Or I can use it occasionally, and spend some time on moves that I am not so good at, like triangles (short thick legs = bad triangles). Most of the time I attempt a triangle against a reasonably good player, I get passed and have to work to regain guard. So not only do I get to work on my triangles, I get to work on guard pass defenses. I grow as a jiu jitsu player.

 

[SLaKKJaW]

This point of view of not finishing on people is from the strongest man view. When I am rolling with a better guy I don't want to be cheated of that roll and him let me do things I would normally not be able to do.

How am I going to learn when people are going 50% on me? You got to feel the heat in order to remember that feeling and know its coming and know not to get into it beforehand.

You're right, to a degree.

But then the weaker guy usually isn't thinking as quickly as the stronger guy, so that reduced pressure also lets the weaker guy have a chance to think and actually execute his escape or defense. This helps them to gain confidence in techniques that they 'know' but can't yet seem to use.

 

[StudentLoan]

This point of view of not finishing on people is from the strongest man view. When I am rolling with a better guy I don't want to be cheated of that roll and him let me do things I would normally not be able to do.

How am I going to learn when people are going 50% on me? You got to feel the heat in order to remember that feeling and know its coming and know not to get into it beforehand.

Fine, only going 50% during rolling won't allow the weaker guy to get a feel for the 'heat'. However, if the stronger man just completely dominates the lesser man, what does he get out of the rolling session? He simply practiced his go to subs and set them up against someone who doesn't know any counters. Should this 'stronger' man go against someone who has more experience and try his go to sub and fail, what next? Not only that but the lesser man got his spirit crushed and might quit BJJ 'cause he feels he's just not good enough.

Again I think a lot of people are misconstruing my original post. I never said don't go for the finish and I never said go 40/50/60% on weaker guys. I simply asked if guys A game camp (thanks to Christian Berger Graugart for the term) were common in other gyms and if they got past this phase. Most people said yes, that's all I wanted.

When you guys roll go nuts and get the tap, I'll be happy to give up side mount/mount and work some sweeps/escapes 3, maybe 4 times then go for a sub.

Oh and Trickster I was just kidding about the thread title, but not really. I demand royalties! In Canadian dollars please.

 

[Trickster***]

Oh and Trickster I was just kidding about the thread title, but not really. I demand royalties! In Canadian dollars please.

I dont blame you the American Dollar isn't worth SHIT these days!!!

 

[walliegabe]

I agree with what Eddie says in this video...

YouTube - Eddie Bravo On: the Ego and the Evolution of Jiu Jitsu

Towards the end of the video where he says you work half your techniques (offense) on the weaker guys "Work on the weaker guys, PREY on them - for your offense. And work your defense on the stronger (better) guys."

I only bring this up bc yesterday there as a post about "Strictly going for the Tap" and only myself and one other person disagreed with the TS (and everyone else who replied) saying that you shouldnt let go of a submission....you should finish it if you get it.

I feel exactly how Eddie described it....practice offense on the weak and defense on the strong...thats how it should be! THAT is really helping everyone get better! You have all heard the expression "If you want to be the best, you train with the best" So why let people out of submissions? Let them get tapped 99 times but learn to escape on the 100th....THAT is how people truely get better...........TOUGH LOVE!!

**I am not talking about picking on lil kids/teenagers or woman - Im talking weaker as in...the same size just inferior skill**

On the otherhand (bc I am a white belt) I expect to roll with my instructor and the purple belts and get my ass handed to me....I expect to tap out vs them, and ya know what...I dont want them letting me out of things bc that would build a false sense of security!

Anyway I just wanted to show the other side of this argument....except Eddie says it better!

agreed

 

[YeahBee]

Both should get something out of a roll,

jsut strictly trying to attack against the weaker guys and defending at the stronger seems quite rigid IMO

What about trying out new stuff on weaker opponenets, what about testing yourself against the stronger?

My msot frequent sparring partner is a behemot, I know that 75% of the time I will loss if I get pinned, I must go on the offense to have s chance

 

[Will_N.O.]

This point of view of not finishing on people is from the strongest man view. When I am rolling with a better guy I don't want to be cheated of that roll and him let me do things I would normally not be able to do.

How am I going to learn when people are going 50% on me? You got to feel the heat in order to remember that feeling and know its coming and know not to get into it beforehand.

I generally agree with Nick's point above, but I think that the size of the skills gap comes into play at some point. I want guys that are a little-to-moderately better than me going 100% for exactly the reason Nick describes.

But as a one-month newb, for a purple or brown to go 100% against me is just kind of silly. Neither of us is going to learn anything that way. Their transitions are just too fast. With that kind of skills gap, there's not even a realistic option of them working their re-counters because they can lock in basically every sub attempt. And I don't learn much because I can't even tell what the hell is going on, it's like being pinned under a human tornado. :icon_neut

By slowing it down, and allowing me to take a dominant position if I am executing basic techniques correctly, it gives us both a chance to stretch out a little bit - bad position for the high belt and good position for me both being something we wouldn't get a lot of work on if everyone went 100% all the time. Plus it gives the high belt a chance to work on their instruction skills as well. IMO this approach is much more useful for both of us when the skills gap is huge.

 

[Trickster***]

I generally agree with Nick's point above, but I think that the size of the skills gap comes into play at some point. I want guys that are a little-to-moderately better than me going 100% for exactly the reason Nick describes.

But as a one-month newb, for a purple or brown to go 100% against me is just kind of silly. Neither of us is going to learn anything that way. Their transitions are just too fast. With that kind of skills gap, there's not even a realistic option of them working their re-counters because they can lock in basically every sub attempt. And I don't learn much because I can't even tell what the hell is going on, it's like being pinned under a human tornado. :icon_neut

By slowing it down, and allowing me to take a dominant position if I am executing basic techniques correctly, it gives us both a chance to stretch out a little bit - bad position for the high belt and good position for me both being something we wouldn't get a lot of work on if everyone went 100% all the time. Plus it gives the high belt a chance to work on their instruction skills as well. IMO this approach is much more useful for both of us when the skills gap is huge.

You make good points but I think it goes without saying hear that we are not talking BRAND new students...or complete FISH! We are talking about the lesser skilled guys but ones that have a decent understanding of the game. Nobody here is talking about PICKING on the TRULEY weak! But you make a good point!

 

[ozyabbas]

The first 6 months of my learning jiu jitsu was wasted because of a sparring partner far bigger, stronger, wrestler from Romania who had no intention of allowing me try any of the techniques. Sparring with him just included him passing my guard rather quickly and pinning me and forcing the submissions from me that he had learnt. The only thing I learnt really is how when im pinned not to get submitted (especially from armbars, chokes and kimuras).

However if I had trained with higher belts, most of them will give me some chance of using the techniques I have learnt and won't just smash me.

The full on sparring should only really be used for competition training.

 

[Will_N.O.]

You make good points but I think it goes without saying hear that we are not talking BRAND new students...or complete FISH! We are talking about the lesser skilled guys but ones that have a decent understanding of the game. Nobody here is talking about PICKING on the TRULEY weak! But you make a good point!

I would have guessed that this would still be true anywhere there's a significant skills gap e.g,. low blues vs. black belts...that if both were going 100% (and roughly the same size), it would just be a tap-fest with not much opportunity for learning on either side. But obviously I have no idea, so I could be wrong.