Rolling Light vs Rolling hard

[Title Fight Productions]

the more technical i get, the harder i go.. against good purples and up i am at 100% as much as possible

But this isn't really what the thread starter is talking about right?

 

[kenpeters8]

Whenever someone said let's roll light, it really mean start light but roll hard towards the middle of the rolling session.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Interesting take for sure and something to think about.

I feel if I'm flow rolling with someone (say 65-70%) and we are working at a comfortable speed, both using technique and I secure a nice technical sweep and then my opponent suddenly turns it up to 100% to not get swept, that is weak!!!

Or say we are again rolling at 65-70%, flowing and my partner see a path to my back and and decides to amp it up and spin for it and latch onto it my back at 100%, just isn't right.

If you're flow rolling, you shouldn't just change speeds. That's lame. But IMO you probably shouldn't be flow rolling 95% of the time, so it shouldn't really be an issue.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

IMO it's not about going light or hard. it's about going as fast as you can while maintaining perfect form. i think of grappling much like tai chi, you go slow so that you can feel and perfect each and every movement and transition. if you get caught in a submission, then just tap and restart. the only time i kick it up a notch is to prepare for a tournament, other than that, grappling for me is like cooking pork...low and slow.

this is just so wrong.

and I would seriously dont want to roll with you much.

 

[LugWrenchBjj]

First guy: "Come on brah, let's flow roll light"

Other guy: "Uh, o...okay..."

First guy: *Violently grabs leg and trys to heel hook the other guy

Other guy: FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

 

[shunyata]

Rolling light is a dangerous concept. I don't think you should use rolling to practice the small technical details of moves, you should use rolling to learn how to apply techniques in a live situation. If you need technical work, drill. I think a higher ratio of drilling to rolling is necessary than most though, so take it for what it's worth. In any case, I think you should roll pretty hard most of the time. Obviously you don't want to hurt people, but that really shouldn't be a problem if you stick to stuff you've drilled a fair bit. I feel like many people don't want to roll hard because

A. They're often not in great shape, and will get dominated by people who maybe aren't as good but are in better shape, and

B. They don't really want to work that hard at BJJ, they'd rather just have a light workout and go home

Neither one of these are valid excuses, IMO. Sure, if you're older or injured take that into account, but if you really want to learn BJJ that will work in a fight or competition situation I think you should be rolling at 80-90% maximum intensity most of the time. You need to feel the intensity of someone really trying to dominate you and figure out how to deal with that technically, physically, and mentally. It cracks me up that so many BJJ guys are afraid of or don't like rolling with wrestlers, and the only reason is that wrestlers are more intense and in better shape than the BJJ dudes. BJJ need to have more of that wrestler mentality IMO, though they can keep the over-training.

I think what many people want to get out of rolling light, namely a chance to practice stuff they're not very good at at half speed, is much better done via positional sparring. Let's say you just learned deep half and you want to practice sweeps. Trying to do that during live rolling is very hard, because you're probably not that good at the entries yet and even if you are you may get there once or twice in a 6 minute roll. Plus, you may be trying to force it where it's not appropriate, which is a bad habit to develop. If you instead did some 50% positional sparring starting from deep half, you'd get to work the moves with increasing resistance without developing any bad habits. Then when you rolled live, you could go to deep half if it came up while still playing the rest of your game normally, and you'd develop a more organic feel of how deep half fits into your game. To me that's a much better outcome.

Ultimately, how you practice is how you'll perform. If you roll light a large % of the time, you're going to have a lot trouble dealing with the serious intensity of a competition or self defense situation where a guy is really coming after you. Black belts can get away with it because most of them have tons of experience rolling hard, so they can afford to take it easy on lower belts. The lower belts themselves don't have that luxury and need to be working full speed technique when they're sparring. That doesn't mean just try to ragdoll people in non technical ways, but you should have to try to make even good technique work because that's how BJJ actually is in real life.

Every high level competitive black belt I've ever rolled with has rolled fairly hard most of the time, and had their students do the same. I don't think that's just a coincidence.

To TS, if you're not hurting people and you're being relatively technical (real world technique is never as pretty as drills, of course), I wouldn't feel bad at all about rolling hard. I don't think anyone has the right to complain about you making them work hard in sparring. If you are hurting people then perhaps you're going faster than your skills allow, which would necessitate a slow down. But it doesn't sound like that's the case, so take heart in the fact that you're getting better faster than the slow rollers.

I see lower belts make this mistake ALL THE TIME. Yes, higher belts will roll lighter and under control against you. This is because compared to them, you arent very good. I also dont go hard on my highschool wrestlers. Why? Because I dont have to.

For the people saying you shouldnt explode, go hard, or put some horsepower into it, look at these "chumps" not knowing how to be technical and just putting the hammer down.

I feel like we should sticky this thread and delete everything but these two responses.

 

[Joe Dwarf]

don't muscle things if you feel like it wouldn't work against someone of similar strength.

Can you explain your rationale?

Didn't see him reply so ... for me, in practice I want to use the right amount of effort to complete the technique. If you are rolling with someone substantially weaker than you are it is easy to make things work with muscle, so it is beneficial for you both if you don't muscle your way through bad technique. I find this especially with women - I can stuff whatever they are trying to do and also make any goofy thing work for me just by being so much stronger, but that limits progression on both sides. They can't do anything so it's a waste of time for them, and I'm not learning better technique (or worse yet, drilling bad habits) so it's a waste of time for me. Better to try to make the technique work correctly with less effort.

Now in competition of course you use more effort but if your technique is better you need less effort, so you will gas later.

 

[Jackson 2012]

I have to agree to not being a fan of going light, BUT

- if you agree to go light, or
- your instructor tells you to go light

and you go hard, you're a prick.

 

[eembach]

this is just so wrong.

and I would seriously dont want to roll with you much.

It's just as right as any subjective interpretation you have of idealistic grappling theory you simple minded fool.

 

[Vitamin C]

Interesting take for sure and something to think about.

I feel if I'm flow rolling with someone (say 65-70%) and we are working at a comfortable speed, both using technique and I secure a nice technical sweep and then my opponent suddenly turns it up to 100% to not get swept, that is weak!!!

Or say we are again rolling at 65-70%, flowing and my partner see a path to my back and and decides to amp it up and spin for it and latch onto it my back at 100%, just isn't right.

Uchi Mata pretty much covered it, but since you quoted me as well I will give my (pretty much identical) take on it.

Flow rolling for me is something that falls in with the concepts of drilling and situational sparring. It is a functional tool for developing fluid movement, kinaesthetic awareness, and is useful for warming up. That said, I don't consider it to be sparring. I will give up sweeps and stuff all the time in flow rolling, because the purpose is to keep moving, and it is implicit that my partner will concede sweeps and allow escapes etc as well. Disrupting that is a dickbag move, for sure.

Rolling/Sparring is entirely different though, imo. You don't concede anything for the sake of technique. If I can stop a sweep by posting or floating, then they haven't hit that sweep as technically as they need to. They need to control my ability to post, or disrupt my balance so I cannot float or base out. Something is missing if I can resist, and just allowing it to happen does neither of us any good. I'm not going to just stubbornly stall of course. I mean to defend while also advancing my own aims.

 

[Title Fight Productions]

If you're flow rolling, you shouldn't just change speeds. That's lame. But IMO you probably shouldn't be flow rolling 95% of the time, so it shouldn't really be an issue.

I agree, flow rolling is what I was talking about. And no, you shouldn't be flow rolling all that much compare to a regular hard roll.

I was also thinking about when people ask me to go "light" for whatever reason and then mid roll see an opening and go for it with the gusto of Paul Harris! That shit annoys me to no end.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I agree, flow rolling is what I was talking about. And no, you shouldn't be flow rolling all that much compare to a regular hard roll.

I was also thinking about when people ask me to go "light" for whatever reason and then mid roll see an opening and go for it with the gusto of Paul Harris! That shit annoys me to no end.

Yeah that's BS. I let it go with white belts, because they just get very excited, but blue and up should be able to maintain a relatively steady pace.

 

[Title Fight Productions]

Uchi Mata pretty much covered it, but since you quoted me as well I will give my (pretty much identical) take on it.

Flow rolling for me is something that falls in with the concepts of drilling and situational sparring. It is a functional tool for developing fluid movement, kinaesthetic awareness, and is useful for warming up. That said, I don't consider it to be sparring. I will give up sweeps and stuff all the time in flow rolling, because the purpose is to keep moving, and it is implicit that my partner will concede sweeps and allow escapes etc as well. Disrupting that is a dickbag move, for sure.

Rolling/Sparring is entirely different though, imo. You don't concede anything for the sake of technique. If I can stop a sweep by posting or floating, then they haven't hit that sweep as technically as they need to. They need to control my ability to post, or disrupt my balance so I cannot float or base out. Something is missing if I can resist, and just allowing it to happen does neither of us any good. I'm not going to just stubbornly stall of course. I mean to defend while also advancing my own aims.

Well good! Thanks for the response. I had "Flow rolling" in mind for some reason when i redponded and then had 3 or 4 pretty respectable posters disagree, had me second guessing myself!

 

[kpt018]

You don't always have to roll "to win". I could care less if I tap or get tapped in training. My goal is to improve at least one aspect of a technique. This is how you can develop games that aren't as strong as your A-game.

Thanks, I think this is great advice.

The competitive part of me wants to "win" so badly. I seriously try to win everything, even minigolf back on the 2nd date I had with my now wife (she still reminds me I was supposed to let her win)!

But I have to step back and remember I am training to improve and there is no "winning" in practice. Getting tapped can teach more than landed the submission too.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Thanks, I think this is great advice.

The competitive part of me wants to "win" so badly. I seriously try to win everything, even minigolf back on the 2nd date I had with my now wife (she still reminds me I was supposed to let her win)!

But I have to step back and remember I am training to improve and there is no "winning" in practice. Getting tapped can teach more than landed the submission too.

This demonstrates an important point: don't marry a chick who expects you'll let her win.

 

[faixabranca]

I assume by flow rolling you mean working easy, just letting things happen? We do that as a warm up a lot but only a handful of people actually flow. It's annoying because for those first 10-15 minutes, I would like to get warm, gradually work up. Instead, fist bump then EXPLODE LIKE IT'S FOR MUNDIALS GOLD! Concede nothing, smash and grind, get that fuckin neck and craaaaaannnnk.

In my somewhat limited experience, smaller guys and women are the worst for that. Big guys figure out how to tone down the gooning if they stick around a fair bit faster. Smaller folks, well they simply can't be spazzing because you're bigger.

If you're rolling, I agree thay 80-90% most of the time work best (for whatever this white belts opinion matters).

 

[HIMBOB]

Didn't see him reply so ... for me, in practice I want to use the right amount of effort to complete the technique. If you are rolling with someone substantially weaker than you are it is easy to make things work with muscle, so it is beneficial for you both if you don't muscle your way through bad technique. I find this especially with women - I can stuff whatever they are trying to do and also make any goofy thing work for me just by being so much stronger, but that limits progression on both sides. They can't do anything so it's a waste of time for them, and I'm not learning better technique (or worse yet, drilling bad habits) so it's a waste of time for me. Better to try to make the technique work correctly with less effort.

Now in competition of course you use more effort but if your technique is better you need less effort, so you will gas later.

I get what you are saying and I think the same but that is not what I was getting at.

I was questioning using as much strength as required to complete the move on someone of equal strength.

I thought it should be less than that.