Rolling Light vs Rolling hard

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by HHJ, Oct 14, 2013.

  1. HHJ

    HHJ Jeg reiser til mørkets dyp der alt er dødt.

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    Ive been training on and off for a year (mostly on) ,and im not a spazz and i dont hurt anyone i roll with unneccesary,but i find it tough to go "light"..maybe it could start out that way but theres comes a point where i need to get rough to avoid a submission or to get a guy to the ground...to use aggression because maybe my technique isnt good enough or i just feel i need to explode.I just feel its my nature,even if i was alot better. The first time i rolled with a black belt he was so calm and light and of course let me just get trapped in bad position all by myself,but i just dont feel that comfortable rolling in that style,myself. Sometimes when i go to open mat in other places they want to roll light,and i just find having a hard time sticking to that. Is it all up to my "limitations" that i have trouble with this or is it just natural for some to just want to go at it in a tougher pace? Im curious especially with what more experienced players would have to say.
     
  2. sweatpants

    sweatpants White Belt

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    I feel what you're saying in regards to making up for technique/opportunity with physical strength but it's not sustainable. As you say, when you run reach an unquestionably higher skilled fighter your strength won't help you a bit.

    Roll against people who you can defeat in practice with reasonable success and take your intensity down a notch (or 10). Focus on getting the positions right and you'll probably realize you're doing some stuff (or a lot of stuff) not quite right which requires you to use considerable strength against better opponents.
     
  3. HHJ

    HHJ Jeg reiser til mørkets dyp der alt er dødt.

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    I definitley see what your saying,i agree totally..it just weird for me to agree to go light the whole time...also im so used to facing guys close to my experience range who would be matching my intensity. I guess im just not there yet.
     
  4. Bryan from DC

    Bryan from DC White Belt

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    Honestly, I feel if I explode during training i am cheating myself. I am there to work on perfecting my technique. If I have to go hard or explode to make it work than my technique isn't good enough. Even if my opponents up the pace I just relax and work what I plan to work. I save strength and explosive moments for competition.
     
  5. sb413197

    sb413197 Red Belt

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    That's a hard thing to do with only a year's experience. Being "technical" is hard when you don't have the techniques down in the first place. Be patient and keep trying to apply the techniques you know with the best possible form - pretend that your blackbelt instructor is watching you to make sure you're doing it right - and don't muscle things if you feel like it wouldn't work against someone of similar strength.
     
  6. Musheen

    Musheen Orange Belt

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    I think you just need more experience. More technique, less strength and aggression. Pretty much what's been said above.

    In my experience flow rolling is a staple of many experienced guys, its worth it to practice this and get used to it. Its rare you'll see a black belt going ham.
     
  7. orangeclay

    orangeclay Orange Belt

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    This. ^^. Plus remember the point of rolling in class is to learn not just win.
     
  8. QingTian

    QingTian Purple Belt

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    The problem isn't using strength but knowing when to use strength. You should be ready to explode when appropriate.
     
  9. Lasse

    Lasse Green Belt

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    It sounds like you are scared of losing an honest technical battle so when you get caught you "cheat" by increasing your effort level.

    In genera I think l the people who fail to learn how to "flow-roll" are the ones who develop the worst as well. Even a purple belt may have troubles doing his techniques perfectly at his absolute highest effort level. So a white-belt who constantly just tries to muscle every move, will be way off even in the techniques he thinks are his "go-to's".

    Also your brain functions worse the more exhausted you are, so by constantly pushing up the intensity level you will learn less every training.

    The point of training is trying to beat your opponent using exactly the same intensity as them so you can see where your technique provails and fails. Then you go home and work on that particular area to improve.
     
  10. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

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    It is not about rolling light or rolling hard.

    You have to be able to roll for 30 minutes non stop.

    It is not about rolling for 5 minutes and taking a 5 minutes because you are too tired.
     
  11. Vitamin C

    Vitamin C Black Belt

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    So you don't gas out, nor do you spaz out and hurt people.

    What's the problem, TS?

    If people are complaining that you roll too hard, they need to suck it up a bit imo.

    There is a new guy at my gym who goes at sparring hard. He would gas out hard. So following advice, he became conscious of proper breathing, and identifying unnecessary movements. He has gotten into the flow of it now where he can still roll with the same intensity, but his cardio doesn't suffer.

    I would say his development as a white belt has far outstripped the rate of other WBs I have seen.
     
  12. Mike Piekarski

    Mike Piekarski Blue Belt Professional Fighter

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    You don't always have to roll "to win". I could care less if I tap or get tapped in training. My goal is to improve at least one aspect of a technique. This is how you can develop games that aren't as strong as your A-game.
     
  13. HHJ

    HHJ Jeg reiser til mørkets dyp der alt er dødt.

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    thanks alot guys..gave me alot to think about and definitley offered some reasons on why im like this. appreciated!
     
  14. Edison Carasio

    Edison Carasio Excellence of execution belt

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    I'm only a beginner still but I feel like if you have to be "rough" to avoid or escape a submission, then you probably should have just tapped and restarted.


    I roll hard and light at my club. If a guy is way lighter than me (I'm 280 lbs) then in certain positions I will not put all my weight on them or play guard more. But when rolling "hard" with the experienced guys, we still avoid things like neck cranks, stacking, etc since all of us have day jobs and need to preserve our long term health so we can work and train into old age.
     
  15. HHJ

    HHJ Jeg reiser til mørkets dyp der alt er dødt.

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    i understand..and when it comes to actually applying a submission or something like that im always very careful. I realize some of it comes from not being able to train enough and going full bore when i finally get to. I also hadnt gotten alot of open mat experience where i had someone i could try things on. There was just never enough time. Also id been with my coach longer than his other students currently,andh e puts alot of pressure on me,but that approach i think is having a bad effect.Things are starting to change for the better though.
     
  16. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    Rolling light is a dangerous concept. I don't think you should use rolling to practice the small technical details of moves, you should use rolling to learn how to apply techniques in a live situation. If you need technical work, drill. I think a higher ratio of drilling to rolling is necessary than most though, so take it for what it's worth. In any case, I think you should roll pretty hard most of the time. Obviously you don't want to hurt people, but that really shouldn't be a problem if you stick to stuff you've drilled a fair bit. I feel like many people don't want to roll hard because

    A. They're often not in great shape, and will get dominated by people who maybe aren't as good but are in better shape, and

    B. They don't really want to work that hard at BJJ, they'd rather just have a light workout and go home

    Neither one of these are valid excuses, IMO. Sure, if you're older or injured take that into account, but if you really want to learn BJJ that will work in a fight or competition situation I think you should be rolling at 80-90% maximum intensity most of the time. You need to feel the intensity of someone really trying to dominate you and figure out how to deal with that technically, physically, and mentally. It cracks me up that so many BJJ guys are afraid of or don't like rolling with wrestlers, and the only reason is that wrestlers are more intense and in better shape than the BJJ dudes. BJJ need to have more of that wrestler mentality IMO, though they can keep the over-training.

    I think what many people want to get out of rolling light, namely a chance to practice stuff they're not very good at at half speed, is much better done via positional sparring. Let's say you just learned deep half and you want to practice sweeps. Trying to do that during live rolling is very hard, because you're probably not that good at the entries yet and even if you are you may get there once or twice in a 6 minute roll. Plus, you may be trying to force it where it's not appropriate, which is a bad habit to develop. If you instead did some 50% positional sparring starting from deep half, you'd get to work the moves with increasing resistance without developing any bad habits. Then when you rolled live, you could go to deep half if it came up while still playing the rest of your game normally, and you'd develop a more organic feel of how deep half fits into your game. To me that's a much better outcome.

    Ultimately, how you practice is how you'll perform. If you roll light a large % of the time, you're going to have a lot trouble dealing with the serious intensity of a competition or self defense situation where a guy is really coming after you. Black belts can get away with it because most of them have tons of experience rolling hard, so they can afford to take it easy on lower belts. The lower belts themselves don't have that luxury and need to be working full speed technique when they're sparring. That doesn't mean just try to ragdoll people in non technical ways, but you should have to try to make even good technique work because that's how BJJ actually is in real life.

    Every high level competitive black belt I've ever rolled with has rolled fairly hard most of the time, and had their students do the same. I don't think that's just a coincidence.

    To TS, if you're not hurting people and you're being relatively technical (real world technique is never as pretty as drills, of course), I wouldn't feel bad at all about rolling hard. I don't think anyone has the right to complain about you making them work hard in sparring. If you are hurting people then perhaps you're going faster than your skills allow, which would necessitate a slow down. But it doesn't sound like that's the case, so take heart in the fact that you're getting better faster than the slow rollers.
     
  17. HHJ

    HHJ Jeg reiser til mørkets dyp der alt er dødt.

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    totally this i think situational drilling is something i defnitley need more of.

    no one is really "complaining" but if people ASK me to roll light..i just cant really do it. its almost an alien concept to me. Even with my coach we dont fuck about,we go at it hard.When im rolling I want it to feel as close to a combat situation as i can,its very good for me mentally and physically,and i dont want to waste time trying to go at a speed im not really comfortable with. "roll at 20%" i couldnt... I just see the control some people have(albeit more experienced),and it makes me wonder if not being able to or having any desire to "go light" is something im just not seeing. Certainly i feel like my training situation has lacked certain things at some times,but its getting better.
     
  18. berimBOWLoh

    berimBOWLoh Silver Belt

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    flow rolling takes alot of skill and time to develop.
     
  19. Spazzmaster

    Spazzmaster Purple Belt

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    The answer to all your problems!

    [​IMG]
     
  20. lonewolf210

    lonewolf210 Orange Belt

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    TS I wouldn't feel bad about it. I'm also a beginner and guilty of trying to muscle techniques but often times it's because I simply don't know what else to do and rather than lay there and let the guy just do whatever I try to make what I know work. I don't think that it's necessarily bad because it has allowed to figure out some of the smaller details.
     

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