Rippetoe gives his thoughts on Cain and Junior's S&C and his thoughts on S&C for MMA

[JauntyAngle]

I do not understand your confusion and why you feel you might be missing something. Can't help you there.

Perhaps you are assuming that I have an agenda that I don't have.

I just don't really know what "calisthenics" is. When I was younger, I used to associate it with fat middle-aged men doing star jumps and stuff. Now it seems to be in vogue, and I *think* it is used interchangeably with bodyweight exercises. But I don't know. As someone who lives and works in Asia I am not exposed to trends in S&C as much as others.

 

[Ladyj]

Perhaps you are assuming that I have an agenda that I don't have.

I just don't really know what "calisthenics" is. When I was younger, I used to associate it with fat middle-aged men doing star jumps and stuff. Now it seems to be in vogue, and I *think* it is used interchangeably with bodyweight exercises. But I don't know. As someone who lives and works in Asia I am not exposed to tends in S&C as much as others.

Lol I'm not here to argue with you .I got my answer. Peace.

Nice ninja edit

 

[JauntyAngle]

Nice ninja edit

Well, what I deleted was unnecessarily confrontational.

To put it in context, I should mention that I have been posting here for more than 4 years, and we get threads about the merits of bodyweight versus barbells every couple of months. Along with long/slow distance endurance training versus high intensity and Crossfit versus Everything. And so many of us are pretty short-tempered when one of these comes up.

 

[Ladyj]

Well, what I deleted was unnecessarily confrontational.

To put it in context, I should mention that I have been posting here for more than 4 years, and we get threads about the merits of bodyweight versus barbells every couple of months. Along with long/slow distance endurance training versus high intensity and Crossfit versus Everything. And so many of us are pretty short-tempered when one of these comes up.

I can understand where you are coming from...can easily see how those types of posts would get annoying over time. I actually come from a compound lifting background, but have never trained specifically for fighting. I just always imagined someone able to do explosive push ups or 1 armed push ups would have an easier time on the mat manipulating the position of their body, versus someone who can push up a barbell, but can't do 1 arm push ups. I apologize for my ignorance and I do appreciate being set straight so that I can have a better grasp. No hard feelings over this way.

As to what I was referring to when I said calisthenics:

http://youtu.be/twlBJnBvpSY

 

[Ethan]

I just realised that he might have meant only 2 conditioning sessions a month UNTIL they have that 250/350/450/550, then they add in more conditioning. In Practical Programming, there's an advanced MMA periodization program for 12 weeks peaking up to a fight. Prowler once a week, and 400m sprints and 300m shuttle runs. So,more conditioning would probably be added in after the strength base is established.

Not that I think Ripp knows anything about MMA, but increasing limit strength as simply and quickly as possible seems fairly sound to me. 250/350/450/550 seems like a good strength base for a heavyweight to me, around 2xBW squat, 2.5xBW dead and 1.5xBW bench and 1xBW OHP. At around that strength level it would make more sense to spend time with sport specific movements, translating strength into ability on the mat, or strength endurance, than increasing limit strength (1RM).

I know dick-all about sport specific training and I have a very basic handle on increasing limit strength. I'm in the "increase limit strength" phase now and have been for some time.

I know nothing about conditioning, so I won't comment on his opinion on conditioning. I use sprints but only because I like them.

 

[JauntyAngle]

I can understand where you are coming from...can easily see how those types of posts would get annoying over time. I actually come from a compound lifting background, but have never trained specifically for fighting. I just always imagined someone able to do explosive push ups or 1 armed push ups would have an easier time on the mat manipulating the position of their body, versus someone who can push up a barbell, but can't do 1 arm push ups. I apologize for my ignorance and I do appreciate being set straight so that I can have a better grasp. No hard feelings over this way.

As to what I was referring to when I said calisthenics:

http://youtu.be/twlBJnBvpSY

Some very cool stuff in that video, thanks.

I don't want to undersell the potential benefits of that kind of gymnastic type stuff. It involves explosiveness, isometric strength (being able to hold the position) and also being able to exert force from bad positions. All that has plenty of value. With barbells, you don't train that directly, especially applying force from bad positions. You just develop tonnes of strength in the basic bodily movement- extending your arms, extending your hips, etc. That won't necessarily lead to strong, powerful movements in your sport without some work. Conceivably, the strength developed through gymnastic type movements will require less extra work. So it's actually not that straightforward a topic.

But glad there are no hard feelings. Same on this side.

 

[Obscure Terror]

Not that I think Ripp knows anything about MMA, but increasing limit strength as simply and quickly as possible seems fairly sound to me. 250/350/450/550 seems like a good strength base for a heavyweight to me, around 2xBW squat, 2.5xBW dead and 1.5xBW bench and 1xBW OHP. At around that strength level it would make more sense to spend time with sport specific movements, translating strength into ability on the mat, or strength endurance, than increasing limit strength (1RM).

I know dick-all about sport specific training and I have a very basic handle on increasing limit strength. I'm in the "increase limit strength" phase now and have been for some time.

I know nothing about conditioning, so I won't comment on his opinion on conditioning. I use sprints but only because I like them.

Agreed. You scale these down to fighters in different weight classes and they look like fairly solid goals. A professional welterweight pressing 170lbs, benching 255lbs, squatting 340lbs and deadlifting 425lbs? The press seems quite hard but the rest are not far off what amateur fighters from my gym can manage, and they don't properly strength strain.

If you plugged those standards into a meet total across the big 3 it would be a 1020lb total for someone in the 181lb weight class (allowing 11lbs for a weight cut from 181lbs to 170lbs/welterweight for an MMA fight). Those are all intermediate levels lifts, apart from the OHP, which just scrapes into advanced.

 

[magick]

Priority or not, I still find it strange for anyone to be 'strong' but not be able to do a pull up. But I grew up in a community where you weren't shit if you could not move your body through space without assistance so I'm admittedly biased.

I suppose powerlifters would say that you're not very strong if you can't bench 315lb.

Point being, definition of strength differs, and virtually all strength work is also skill work. You won't have people who bench 315lb easily do a number of gymnastics moves because they're simply not trained for it, and you won't have gymnastics folks benching 315lb because they're not trained for it.

Edit-
(Now that I have a better understanding of where you're coming from)

I was always under the impression that mastering how your own body moves through space would be a preferable enhancement to any martial art. So, it wouldn't surprise me if it is better in certain aspects. But, I can see weight lifting has its place as well.

I see. I got a question for you- What do you think is the difference between a barbell squat and a normal squat?

 

[RafailNadull]

Not that I think Ripp knows anything about MMA, but increasing limit strength as simply and quickly as possible seems fairly sound to me. 250/350/450/550 seems like a good strength base for a heavyweight to me, around 2xBW squat, 2.5xBW dead and 1.5xBW bench and 1xBW OHP. At around that strength level it would make more sense to spend time with sport specific movements, translating strength into ability on the mat, or strength endurance, than increasing limit strength (1RM).

I know dick-all about sport specific training and I have a very basic handle on increasing limit strength. I'm in the "increase limit strength" phase now and have been for some time.

I know nothing about conditioning, so I won't comment on his opinion on conditioning. I use sprints but only because I like them.

Having the strength to get those numbers would be good for a HW. Having the strength to get triple those numbers would be even better. Stronger is always better, everything else equal.

What isn't clear at all is whether someone like Cain or JDS should invest any time at all to get to those numbers, if they aren't there already. It could be that the so acquired marginal increase in fighting ability is simply too small and that it's better to remain weaker but get better at something else.

 

[Ladyj]

I suppose powerlifters would say that you're not very strong if you can't bench 315lb.

Point being, definition of strength differs, and virtually all strength work is also skill work. You won't have people who bench 315lb easily do a number of gymnastics moves because they're simply not trained for it, and you won't have gymnastics folks benching 315lb because they're not trained for it.

And this is why I said I am biased...

I see. I got a question for you- What do you think is the difference between a barbell squat and a normal squat?

........

 

[Eric Brown]

The weirdest thing about the conversation is why people always make it an either/or thing. Why would you only limit yourself to one? Will your face melt off if you did squats, deadlifts, overhead press AND some bodyweight stuff? If both are beneficial elements of an overall regime, why do people care so much which one is "the best"?

Because if people actually stopped to think about shit, there would be nothing to argue about.

Bodyweight exercises are a good compliment to barbell work, and are simple and effective conditioning exercises that can often be done nearly anywhere.

Hell, I do them. I do not bother writing them down, and honestly am fucking sick to death of them (more than 40 years of push ups gets fucking boring) but they still do some good.

 

[Ethan]

Having the strength to get those numbers would be good for a HW. Having the strength to get triple those numbers would be even better. Stronger is always better, everything else equal.

True, yeah, but the difference between a 135 squat and a 450 one is very significant in the cage, and easier to get, while the difference between a 450 squat and a 600 squat is minimal and much more difficult to get, requiring time and specialization and recovery that may be better spent on doing jiu jitsu or punching things, since the sport is about doing jiu jitsu and punching things.

What isn't clear at all is whether someone like Cain or JDS should invest any time at all to get to those numbers, if they aren't there already. It could be that the so acquired marginal increase in fighting ability is simply too small and that it's better to remain weaker but get better at something else.

Agreed 300%.

 

[Fighting Sprite]

http://articles.elitefts.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/MikeSquat.jpg[IMG]

Couldn't find a decent picture of Coan but these two seem very similar...unless I'm missing something.[/QUOTE]

I don't think looking at a picture is a very good judge of how a lifter squats. Since I haven't made it clear, or clear enough, yet, this is what I think of, when I think of a Rip/SS squat

[MEDIA=youtube]7TB0PpIGcX0[/MEDIA]

Now here is a vid of Mike T and Dan squatting.

[MEDIA=youtube]k9Mc7nHhCUg[/MEDIA]
[MEDIA=youtube]e-gCgyBtV4Y[/MEDIA]

What sticks out to me from Mike squats that resemble Rip's, is the high thumb grip, the elbows back, the way his torso seems to shoot back at the start of the ascent and finally, the duck stance (feet close, toes pointed out, knees forward and way out).

With Dan, his grip and elbow position aren't consistent with how I view an SS squat. He seems more of an up and down squatter to me, though things start to change a bit when weights get maximal. His stance is wider and his knees track in line with his feet as opposed to outside of them.

Feel free to call me crazy, though.

 

[Obscure Terror]

The grips are definitely different, Dan seems to take a wider grip with thumbs around. Honestly, the squat at 1.02 of the Dan Green vid makes the foot position and stance width look almost identical to Mike T.

It's also worth noting that Rippetoe commented on Dan Green's squat and praised it on the SS forum, saying Dan "stays in his hips". I can't see Rip approving anything that isn't SS style ha.

 

[Fighting Sprite]

Mike is definitely closer, just the angle of Mike's vid doesn't show it clearly. Here's a front view:



I have no idea what he means by stays in his hips, so I can't comment on that.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

I dont know if it has been mentioned yet but in PPST3 specifically talks about training for mma and even has a program specifically for mma.

Personally I know a pro fighter who doesnt even lift in the 135 class and he is a professional champion

 

[aus101]

Agreed. You scale these down to fighters in different weight classes and they look like fairly solid goals. A professional welterweight pressing 170lbs, benching 255lbs, squatting 340lbs and deadlifting 425lbs? The press seems quite hard but the rest are not far off what amateur fighters from my gym can manage, and they don't properly strength strain.

If you plugged those standards into a meet total across the big 3 it would be a 1020lb total for someone in the 181lb weight class (allowing 11lbs for a weight cut from 181lbs to 170lbs/welterweight for an MMA fight). Those are all intermediate levels lifts, apart from the OHP, which just scrapes into advanced.

Intermediate strength levels should not be hard at all for actual UFC level athletes to attain. I hit those numbers at a BW of 170, and I am not gifted at strength (was cross country captain in junior school). Most WW's walk around at 195/200 pounds anyway, and would likely be considerably stronger than those numbers posted.

 

[Tosa]

The problem is with setting specific bench marks. You have to figure out what's the most economical use of a fighters time and effort in making him more competitive.

For example, some individuals can gain a lot of strength with a moderate amount of work - in which case you could set some pretty high goals regarding strength without it taking too much away from other training, building up a big strength advantage. Other individuals will take more work and time to improve strength, and more modest strength related goals would be more appropriate, so as not to take away from other training.

Intermediate or advanced isn't well defined by the amount of weight lifted, but the kind of training an individual best responds to.

 

[OoopsaDaisey]

I've been seriously thinking of getting into a program for a degree in Exercise Science, focused on MMA, purely due to how incredibly underdeveloped the MMA S&C scene is. As we see in the Cain Velasquez video, even arguably the #1 team in the sport has a quack as their S&C guy!

I'm currently a sous-chef, and plan on continuing the career while working on the degree. Seems like a decent combination of hobbies/careers, eh?

 

[Eric Brown]

I've been seriously thinking of getting into a program for a degree in Exercise Science, focused on MMA, purely due to how incredibly underdeveloped the MMA S&C scene is. As we see in the Cain Velasquez video, even arguably the #1 team in the sport has a quack as their S&C guy!

I'm currently a sous-chef, and plan on continuing the career while working on the degree. Seems like a decent combination of hobbies/careers, eh?

You will encounter far less stupidity in the culinary industry.

No, not really joking. Take this thread for example. All time greats who were winning IPF world titles before Rip ever made his name publishing else's program and piggy-backing off of other coaches lifters now squat "rip/SS style." Of course, given that a fair amount of hip drive and lower back involvement has always separated the PL squat from the OL squat, I fail to see how someone can stake a claim on everyone squatting "their style."

Gotta love the fuckin' internet.


And for the record, Coan's squat style is not and has not always been the same. It has changed a bit over the years, and, having a proportionally short torso (one of the reasons for his phenomenal deadlift) he will generally use more forward lean than someone with a more proportional build. Furthermore, he will also make last minute adjustments to his squat as he walks the bar out. He generally pushes his knees out (his term for it being "open your groin") but will keep them in closer if he does not feel tight enough.

People really need to quit assuming shit because they saw it on the internet. For everyone concerned about the squat style of a particular lifter, how about actually talking to them? We did this in the days before the internet, and oddly enough, people became better lifters. I suppose winning the internet is more important, though.

Really, shit like this makes me want to punch the entire human race right in the dick.