RIP Mikhail Gorbachev

[Bald1]

Without the Baltics?

Guy sent tanks, army and OMON to Riga and Vilnius in 1991 after we voted for our desire to leave the Soviet Union, in order to scare us back into submission. There was urban combat, innocent people were being shot in the streets.

We were lucky that Gorbachev was a pussy and was afraid to spill more blood.

There's so much revisionist history going on that it's ridiculous. Yeah, things were winding down by the late 80 and early 90s, but Russia wasn't yet a neutered dog. I know people in the old country puckered their arseholes and held their collective breath when they removed the border fence to allow east Germans to cross through Austria in the spring of 89. Maybe if it was someone other than old Gorby at the helm mother Russia would have sent tanks rolling into Hungary again, but thank God it wasn't.

I don't give a single flying fuck what others think of Gorbachev or Reagan. They were the right men at the right time to accomplish the right thing. I was in my teens but will always remember watching the Berlin wall being breached then beat with whatever the people could get their hands on. That was heavy shit.

 

[Iron Nick]

He was one of the reasons the USSR was dissolved (alongside Yelzin) which led to the sharpest decrease in life expectancy a country not at war has ever seen and to the dissolution of things like housing for everyone and universal healthcare.

Maybe he had good intentions, but what are they worth at the end of the day?

 

[Iron Nick]

Its pretty much accepted, you can even read the transcripts that were never disputed. Obviously he should have gotten a agreement signed on paper but what do you expect from a useless cunt like him. No doubt the EU will be fawning over him and lowering their flags in respect today but his legacy will always stabbing the people in the back.

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Thanks for being pretty much the only one in this thread aware of Gorbachev's actual legacy.

 

[Dalarna3]

He couldn’t handle losing Pizza Hut.

 

[Bald1]

He was one of the reasons the USSR was dissolved (alongside Yelzin) which led to the sharpest decrease in life expectancy a country not at war has ever seen and to the dissolution of things like housing for everyone and universal healthcare.

Maybe he had good intentions, but what are they worth at the end of the day?

And repressing millions of people in the satellite states.
And stopping midnight visits that saw people disappear.
And demanding tribute from would be free people.

Yeah, you think boo hoo decreased life expectancy while the victims of the CCCP thought thank God the leech is gone. And that's worth a hell of a lot more than your sob story.

 

[Prefect]

He was one of the reasons the USSR was dissolved (alongside Yelzin) which led to the sharpest decrease in life expectancy a country not at war has ever seen and to the dissolution of things like housing for everyone and universal healthcare.

Maybe he had good intentions, but what are they worth at the end of the day?

I have a relative that lived under communist Hungary. She said that it wasn't so bad because everyone had housing, medical, education, a job, retirement and lived with very low crime. You weren't rich but no one was going to pull the rug out from under you with layoffs. No one is going to say it was perfect but if you wanted the necessities. In the U.S., I would say around 40-50% of the population lacks access to all necessities.

 

[IDGETKTFO]

I'm surprised he lived this long

I assumed he was already dead. If someone were to ask me to guess when he died, I would have guess decades ago.

 

[Blayt7hh]

The countries that have joined NATO since then have done so out of their own volition. They have the right to not be part of Russia’s ”sphere of influence” if they so choose.

Only fools believe the invasion of Ukrainian is because of NATO expansion anyways.

 

[Iron Nick]

And repressing millions of people in the satellite states.
And stopping midnight visits that saw people disappear.
And demanding tribute from would be free people.

Yeah, you think boo hoo decreased life expectancy while the victims of the CCCP thought thank God the leech is gone. And that's worth a hell of a lot more than your sob story.

That's not the whole story...
Yes, there were people who were fed up with some things in the socialist states (be it the soviet republics or countries like romania). Some of these things were due to political failures by the leadership of these states.
With that being said, if socialist countries don't have a functioning intelligence apparatus, they're bound to get sabotaged, if not outright overthrown by coups orchestrated from capitalist superpowers.
In fact, capitalist intelligence apparatuses have participated or directly killed lots of socialist leaders and socialists in general, whose influence was deemed too big on society.
Be it Salvador Allende, Thomas Sankara, Patrice Lumumba, MLK, Fred Hampton, Rosa Luxemburg and many more.
As i'm sure you're aware of, they have tried it with Castro as well, but have failed.

Now, do i think that everything that socialist intelligence apparatuses have done was completely justified?
No, of course not.
What i am saying is that a "liberal" socialist state can not exist on this planet, so as long as capitalist powers keep their current amount of influence.
Yelzin - with the help of american intelligence (this isn't a conspiracy btw!) - basically couped what was left of the chances for the USSR to stay socialist/become socialist again.

Back to the original point though; most people were in favor to keep the united socialist soviet republics as socialist states... but even if that wasn't case; almost anything is better than what Russia was like in the years post USSR.
Post USSR and thanks to the neoliberal "shock therapy", there came an amount of poverty and crime, that was unprecedented for several generations.

 

[Poatan Power]

Leader of the free world? What the fuck are you talking about. Reagan was involved in fuckery all over the globe. His administration was full on corrupt and had more indictments than Trump's.

I have a relative that lived under communist Hungary. She said that it wasn't so bad because everyone had housing, medical, education, a job, retirement and lived with very low crime. You weren't rich but no one was going to pull the rug out from under you with layoffs. No one is going to say it was perfect but if you wanted the necessities. In the U.S., I would say around 40-50% of the population lacks access to all necessities.

It's scary that people this dumb exist. cope harder.

 

[Bald1]

That's not the whole story...
Yes, there were people who were fed up with some things in the socialist states (be it the soviet republics or countries like romania). Some of these things were due to political failures by the leadership of these states.
With that being said, if socialist countries don't have a functioning intelligence apparatus, they're bound to get sabotaged, if not outright overthrown by coups orchestrated from capitalist superpowers.
In fact, capitalist intelligence apparatuses have participated or directly killed lots of socialist leaders and socialists in general, whose influence was deemed too big on society.
Be it Salvador Allende, Thomas Sankara, Patrice Lumumba, MLK, Fred Hampton, Rosa Luxemburg and many more.
As i'm sure you're aware of, they have tried it with Castro as well, but have failed.

Now, do i think that everything that socialist intelligence apparatuses have done was completely justified?
No, of course not.
What i am saying is that a "liberal" socialist state can not exist on this planet, so as long as capitalist powers keep their current amount of influence.
Yelzin - with the help of american intelligence (this isn't a conspiracy btw!) - basically couped what was left of the chances for the USSR to stay socialist/become socialist again.

Back to the original point though; most people were in favor to keep the united socialist soviet republics as socialist states... but even if that wasn't case; almost anything is better than what Russia was like in the years post USSR.
Post USSR and thanks to the neoliberal "shock therapy", there came an amount of poverty and crime, that was unprecedented for several generations.

I'm not from Russia but was born in Europe under Soviet rule.

Yeah, after the fall of the wall things went to shit. Crime skyrocketed and uncertainty was the norm. People suffered. My oldest cousin's place was completely cleared out before they started keeping Rotties. My aunt's door in a commie block apartment had as many locks as you saw on 70s New York crime shows. The transition was a shock to people who'd get by under the old system no matter the effort they put in. Alcoholism went through the roof (that's saying something considering home brew has been a part of Hungarian culture since the country's founding) and western corporations came in and rolled out ruthless capitalism on a population that wasn't used to such a thing.

People still say there were some things that were better under communism.

Yet none of my family would want to go back to the old system. For one thing the surprise visitors demanding to know where the hell we were stopped coming. People could speak their minds without worrying about the cunt down the street reporting them. My uncle was one of those cunts and the reason for their curiosity as to our whereabouts. Don't get me wrong, we weren't fugitives or any such things, but when a mid level member of the party's brother bailed there were questions. I loved my uncle but hated his ideology. As did, and does my dad, despite my pops admitting there's benefits to socialism.

People weren't fed up with "some things" in the socialist (read totalitarian) system. They were fed up with having no control over their lives. Restricted freedom of travel. Being told what to say and think. Having to worry that if you say something not approved by what amounted to the ministry of truth mixed with religous style dogma that they'd lose their what freedom they had remaining. People want to be in control of their destiny and that opportunity wasn't afforded them. And people living under such control will reject even utopia in favor of freedom.

And this was in one of the most "westernized" and free countries under Soviet rule. So let's not pretend that anyone besides the most indoctrinated would have preferred the status quo of the hive mind controlling their destiny. Yeah, the grass 8s always greener blah blah blah, but "better to rule in hell than serve in heaven" is somewhat applicable as it speaks to having autonomy.

 

[Iron Nick]

I'm not from Russia but was born in Europe under Soviet rule.

Yeah, after the fall of the wall things went to shit. Crime skyrocketed and uncertainty was the norm. People suffered. My oldest cousin's place was completely cleared out before they started keeping Rotties. My aunt's door in a commie block apartment had as many locks as you saw on 70s New York crime shows. The transition was a shock to people who'd get by under the old system no matter the effort they put in. Alcoholism went through the roof (that's saying something considering home brew has been a part of Hungarian culture since the country's founding) and western corporations came in and rolled out ruthless capitalism on a population that wasn't used to such a thing.

People still say there were some things that were better under communism.

Yet none of my family would want to go back to the old system. For one thing the surprise visitors demanding to know where the hell we were stopped coming. People could speak their minds without worrying about the cunt down the street reporting them. My uncle was one of those cunts and the reason for their curiosity as to our whereabouts. Don't get me wrong, we weren't fugitives or any such things, but when a mid level member of the party's brother bailed there were questions. I loved my uncle but hated his ideology. As did, and does my dad, despite my pops admitting there's benefits to socialism.

People weren't fed up with "some things" in the socialist (read totalitarian) system. They were fed up with having no control over their lives. Restricted freedom of travel. Being told what to say and think. Having to worry that if you say something not approved by what amounted to the ministry of truth mixed with religous style dogma that they'd lose their what freedom they had remaining. People want to be in control of their destiny and that opportunity wasn't afforded them. And people living under such control will reject even utopia in favor of freedom.

And this was in one of the most "westernized" and free countries under Soviet rule. So let's not pretend that anyone besides the most indoctrinated would have preferred the status quo of the hive mind controlling their destiny. Yeah, the grass 8s always greener blah blah blah, but "better to rule in hell than serve in heaven" is somewhat applicable as it speaks to having autonomy.

I don't agree with the conclusions of yours in many parts (who'd have thought, lol) but thank you for your detailed comment regardless, as it was a very interesting insight.