Renzos arm triangle

[nefti]

Does anyone have insight into this chike? You see Damien Maia tapping really quickly..

 

[backlight]

Looks like standard kata gatame (as mentioned at the start of the vid) but using the hands to target the choke.

 

[EndlessCritic]

Never seen that before... definitely unusual.

 

[Balto]

I've seen that a lot in TMA. It's the first way I learned how to do an arm triangle actually before I even started BJJ.

I mostly do the standard BJJ RNC grip style arm triangle way now, but I still hit it like this with the wrist occasionally. It's very effective when you lock it in right.

The main drawback I've found is that the room for error in this version is way less than the RNC grip version. You have to be very precise with your wrist placement. But as long as you get your wrist into the right spot, it's a very quick tap.

 

[RJ Green]

ever since watching the ryan hall dvd i've tried to use my weight/chest/drive from my feet to finish, rather than just pulling/squeezing as hard as possible. henzo's doing it at about a 45 degree angle, where hall almost goes perpendicular.

great stuff nefti i can't decide whether to play with crucifix or go back to arm triangles for my next project...

 

[nefti]

The thing that gets me is how quick Damien taps the second time(?) He shows the choke.

 

[EGDM]

The thing that gets me is how quick Damien taps the second time(?) He shows the choke.

Looks like it hurts like a motherfucker. It's probably at least double the pressure being applied with the thumb bone as opposed to the forearm.

 

[nefti]

Looks like it hurts like a motherfucker. It's probably at least double the pressure being applied with the thumb bone as opposed to the forearm.

I don't think it is a pain issue but the effectiveness of the choke. We all expect a degree of pain/crank when it comes to no gi chokes. It just looks very effective.

 

[nefti]

Second video

 

[EGDM]

I don't think it is a pain issue but the effectiveness of the choke. We all expect a degree of pain/crank when it comes to no gi chokes. It just looks very effective.

The response from blood flow restriction just isn't that quick, though. I'm not saying it isn't an effective choke, but it's most likely that Maia is tapping that fast because it hurts and it's a demo. I doubt you'd see the same speed from him in a roll.

(Exactly, in your second video they all took 5-10 seconds to tap except that last guy who was clearly responding to pain.)

 

[Uchi Mata]

ever since watching the ryan hall dvd i've tried to use my weight/chest/drive from my feet to finish, rather than just pulling/squeezing as hard as possible. henzo's doing it at about a 45 degree angle, where hall almost goes perpendicular.

great stuff nefti i can't decide whether to play with crucifix or go back to arm triangles for my next project...

Crucifix is a bit overrated IMO. I've been playing with it a lot and it's useful, but if I had to choose between being good at arm triangles (all flavors including Darces and anacondas) and having a sick crucifix game, I'd take arm triangles any day. Crucifix is mostly useful without the gi against people who get in on your legs a lot, because that gives you the opportunity to get a double over bodylock and start playing it Barret style. You certainly can play a more traditional crucifix game with or without the gi getting the knee inserted against the turtle, but for me at least it doesn't seem to be more effective than just taking the back from there and it's a lot of work to develop a somewhat redundant skill set for that position.

 

[QingTian]

Looks like standard kata gatame (as mentioned at the start of the vid) but using the hands to target the choke.

Looks like he is choking the other side of the neck. A very nice innovation.

 

[mataleaos]

Crucifix is a bit overrated IMO. I've been playing with it a lot and it's useful, but if I had to choose between being good at arm triangles (all flavors including Darces and anacondas) and having a sick crucifix game, I'd take arm triangles any day. Crucifix is mostly useful without the gi against people who get in on your legs a lot, because that gives you the opportunity to get a double over bodylock and start playing it Barret style. You certainly can play a more traditional crucifix game with or without the gi getting the knee inserted against the turtle, but for me at least it doesn't seem to be more effective than just taking the back from there and it's a lot of work to develop a somewhat redundant skill set for that position.

Same here. I like the crucifix a lot but if it's between those two choices...

 

[Uchi Mata]

Same here. I like the crucifix a lot but if it's between those two choices...

Since I started not rolling to my back with the crucifix, rather using it as a control position from the top to set up guillotines and inverted triangles it's been much more effective for me. Especially in the gym, to play that Barret style crucifix you have to be willing to just mercilessly rake across someone's face to get chances to set the RNC, and while I wouldn't care at all about doing it in comp or in a fight it definitely makes the position pretty slow during rolls when I'm not going to do that to my teammates. These days when I end up rolled over so I'm on my back with the crucifix I'll typically just try to set up a strong kimura grip and transition to the top with a leg triangle already set up and just finish from there. If you're doing the full Barret with the leg entanglement you can try to transition to the inside sankaku, but that's more scrambly than I generally like to be.

 

[jr jr]

Hummm.....I have been playing with a lot of arm triangles. My biggest success has been flat hips and a liner "S" grip (opposite of Renzo). Anyone have an in-depth analysis of both? or a comparison?

By liner grips- I keep my elbows in a straight line with my grips.

 

[mataleaos]

Since I started not rolling to my back with the crucifix, rather using it as a control position from the top to set up guillotines and inverted triangles it's been much more effective for me. Especially in the gym, to play that Barret style crucifix you have to be willing to just mercilessly rake across someone's face to get chances to set the RNC, and while I wouldn't care at all about doing it in comp or in a fight it definitely makes the position pretty slow during rolls when I'm not going to do that to my teammates. These days when I end up rolled over so I'm on my back with the crucifix I'll typically just try to set up a strong kimura grip and transition to the top with a leg triangle already set up and just finish from there. If you're doing the full Barret with the leg entanglement you can try to transition to the inside sankaku, but that's more scrambly than I generally like to be.

So when you say guillotine and inverted triangles you don't mean laying on your back with the crucifix and then throwing the inverted triangle or sort of letting them turn in-Garry Tonon style-for the guillotine? You mean they're on all fours and you get the crucifix and you attack the guillotine and inverted triangle from right there right?

 

[mattemate]

I like it. Renzo continues to evolve. This is more like a short choke, as fat as the gripping details.
When I do arm triangles the past year or so I do the one armed Ryan Hall style. Lots of head pressure, and walk out, use the free arm as more base, like an outrigger. Really tight. Before that I was doing it like Marcus Aurelio did when he put Gomi to sleep.

 

[mataleaos]

Hummm.....I have been playing with a lot of arm triangles. My biggest success has been flat hips and a liner "S" grip (opposite of Renzo). Anyone have an in-depth analysis of both? or a comparison?

By liner grips- I keep my elbows in a straight line with my grips.

I find the Ryan Hall/Seph Smith finish to be the easiest and most powerful by far. Braulio Estima's is basically like this too. I've worked arm triangles for 9 years now and I've tried every grip variation and positioning variation in the book. This 1-2 sequence requires almost no muscle either.

 

[Uchi Mata]

So when you say guillotine and inverted triangles you don't mean laying on your back with the crucifix and then throwing the inverted triangle or sort of letting them turn in-Garry Tonon style-for the guillotine? You mean they're on all fours and you get the crucifix and you attack the guillotine and inverted triangle from right there right?

Yes. What I've started to really, really like is getting the Yoshida style double over body lock, digging a heel in for the crucifix, but then staying in front of my opponent and attacking the neck. With one arm trapped and being face down, it's very hard for him to stop you from getting under the chin. Especially since you can use one of your arms to pin his free arm and then start digging unopposed. If that's not working rather than leaving my leg fully laced with his arm I can release his forearm from my shin/instep and shoot my leg across to the far side and start working a Judo style inverted triangle from the top. Generally if I do this I'll roll over after it's locked in and start attacking the free arm, it generally quite an easy kimura. I like that Tonon turn-in guillotine too, but I'd rather not go to my back in the first place. It kills my own hip mobility to a certain extent being on my back, and make the escape easier. I also lose the ability then to try and switch my legs and go directly to the back with the arm already trapped, which is another strong crucifix option that I've only ever been able to make work when still being on top.

 

[RJ Green]

Crucifix is a bit overrated IMO. I've been playing with it a lot and it's useful, but if I had to choose between being good at arm triangles (all flavors including Darces and anacondas) and having a sick crucifix game, I'd take arm triangles any day. Crucifix is mostly useful without the gi against people who get in on your legs a lot, because that gives you the opportunity to get a double over bodylock and start playing it Barret style. You certainly can play a more traditional crucifix game with or without the gi getting the knee inserted against the turtle, but for me at least it doesn't seem to be more effective than just taking the back from there and it's a lot of work to develop a somewhat redundant skill set for that position.

That's the direction my thoughts have been headed. It's been a bit easier to keep the far arm trapped with my legs from crucifix rather than the back - i just sprawl in front of them, wait for them to single, then stuff their head and roll. i completely agree that it's redundant as far as sub opportunities, and if anything limits my ability to transition. if anything, i've been playing with it out of sheer boredom. my arms are plenty long for most flavors of arm triangle, but in gi it seems that most of the positions i can hit a darce from are just 90º from a back take anyway.

duly noted though dude. once i'm back into nogi i'll heed your advice.