Renzo Gracie vs Pedro Sauer (tap theory)

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fighting.spirit

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I recently saw a clip on youtube of Pedro Sauer giving a talk in his gym about tapping (I'd post it here, but I'm at work and youtube is blocked. I'll post it when I get home). He said something along the lines of, the best sound in BJJ is the sound of the tap and how he used to, back in the day when training with Rickson and Royler, tap as soon as he felt they got caught him. That way he learned the techniqe and was able to develop more escapes and counters. I also remember watching a clip of Keith Owen (P. Sauer black belt), saying that a black belt is the guy that has tapped over 10,000 times, or something. And that this was his mentor's theory. Basically, from what I understand, it's a "tap first" or "always tap" theory. There is no pride in getting hurt or being choked out due to not tapping. That's just ignorant. And the way to improve and learn is to "tap first".

After watching these clips, I quickly thought of Renzo Gracie's documentary "Legacy". Their, he explains, several times, how tapping is not an option for him. He explains it in a way that makes tapping synonymous to surrender. That it's a matter of pride. He'd rather get his arm broke, or get choked out, rather than tap. He mentions this when speaking about his fight with Sakuraba. He said, after Sakuraba got him in the Kimura, "I remember he broke my arm and I had plenty of time to tap [giggle], but that's never gonna happen here". So it's the exact opposite of the above theory. It's a "never tap" theory.

Both are quite interesting. I'm honestly not sure whether they differentiate between training/ rolling in the gym and competition. What are your thoughts and/ or your instructor's thoughts? Have you heard anything from the bigger BJJ names on the subject?

Cheers.

Update: The fact that I might be comparing two seperate things (training theory and competition mentality) brings me to ask two new questions:

1. Do you take the competition mentality to your training?
2. How does Pedro Sauer's training theory help develop one's technique?
 
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renzo is not going to let his arm/leg torn in practice. Renzo is talking about competitions and more specifically mma where he believes that he is not only fighting for himself but his family
 
Seems like Pedro is referring to tapping in the context of training, while Renzo is referring to it in the context of fighting. Two very different things IMO. They probably share each others' views in the proper context
 
I thought of that, but I know for sure that many guys take both types of mentalities to both training and competition. Perhaps not to the extreme of letting their arm get broken, in training, but they won't tap unless they really "feel the burn". Or I can say, that they take the "compeition mentality" into their training. I remember this from Gerbil's blog in Rio. A lot of guys won't tap until the very end and they'll get extremely angry when tapped.

There's also an extra scene (or deleted scene) in Renzo's docmentary, where one of his students has developed a submission that he taps two guys, then Ryan [Gracie] with. When he puts it on Renzo, he doesn't tap. You can tell by the sound he makes (he talks when put in it) that it hurts, heh. It just seems that some guys, including maybe Renzo, take that type of mentality even in their training, whilst others choose to always tap.
 
You are comparing training theory vs. competition / battles where pride and glory is on the line.

two very different things
 
I clearly see what you guys are saying. Perhaps this thread can develop into which type of mentality guys take into their training. I've honestly never considered "always tapping" or tapping as soon as I get caught in something, even during training. I try to fight it to the very end. I'm also not sure how exactly Pedro Sauer's theory helped him develop better escapes and counters.

Two new questions, I guess:

1. Do you take the competition mentality to your training?
2. How does Pedro Sauer's training theory help develop one's technique?
 
I'm sure Renzo's "never tap philosophy" works out well for white belts who take him seriously.

Not tapping is a luxury you can afford when you have skills.
 
I train under Jeff Curran who's a BB under Pedro Sauer and Jeff stresses tapping as early as possible, just so you don't get hurt and instead of struggling out of the position after you're caught, it teaches you not to fall into that position and get caught in the first place.
 
DeadAim713 said:
I train under Jeff Curran who's a BB under Pedro Sauer and Jeff stresses tapping as early as possible, just so you don't get hurt and instead of struggling out of the position after you're caught, it teaches you not to fall into that position and get caught in the first place.
Click to expand...

Hmm. Very interesting thoery. Thanks for the input, man. I've yet to completely understand the concept, though. I feel that being in that "struggling to get out" situation teaches you something. That type of position takes you back to your instinctual defense habits. So if you tend to have bad ones, they change and you develop proper technique even in that position. Does that make sense?
 
fighting.spirit said:
Hmm. Very interesting thoery. Thanks for the input, man. I've yet to completely understand the concept, though. I feel that being in that "struggling to get out" situation teaches you something. That type of position takes you back to your instinctual defense habits. So if you tend to have bad ones, they change and you develop proper technique even in that position. Does that make sense?
Click to expand...

It's always good to learn how to escape a submission, but you also need to focus on learning how to not end up in the submission in the first place. We practice both, but some days they tell us to practice by tapping early and some days they don't care.
 
DeadAim713 said:
It's always good to learn how to escape a submission, but you also need to focus on learning how to not end up in the submission in the first place. We practice both, but some days they tell us to practice by tapping early and some days they don't care.
Click to expand...

Awesome.
 
fighting.spirit said:
I recently saw a clip on youtube of Pedro Sauer giving a talk in his gym about tapping (I'd post it here, but I'm at work and youtube is blocked. I'll post it when I get home). He said something along the lines of, the best sound in BJJ is the sound of the tap and how he used to, back in the day when training with Rickson and Royler, tap as soon as he felt they got caught him. That way he learned the techniqe and was able to develop more escapes and counters. I also remember watching a clip of Keith Owen (P. Sauer black belt), saying that a black belt is the guy that has tapped over 10,000 times, or something. And that this was his mentor's theory. Basically, from what I understand, it's a "tap first" or "always tap" theory. There is no pride in getting hurt or being choked out due to not tapping. That's just ignorant. And the way to improve and learn is to "tap first".

After watching these clips, I quickly thought of Renzo Gracie's documentary "Legacy". Their, he explains, several times, how tapping is not an option for him. He explains it in a way that makes tapping synonymous to surrender. That it's a matter of pride. He'd rather get his arm broke, or get choked out, rather than tap. He mentions this when speaking about his fight with Sakuraba. He said, after Sakuraba got him in the Kimura, "I remember he broke my arm and I had plenty of time to tap [giggle], but that's never gonna happen here". So it's the exact opposite of the above theory. It's a "never tap" theory.

Both are quite interesting. I'm honestly not sure whether they differentiate between training/ rolling in the gym and competition. What are your thoughts and/ or your instructor's thoughts? Have you heard anything from the bigger BJJ names on the subject?

Cheers.

Update: The fact that I might be comparing two seperate things (training theory and competition mentality) brings me to ask two new questions:

1. Do you take the competition mentality to your training?
2. How does Pedro Sauer's training theory help develop one's technique?
Click to expand...

Well also the Sakuraba fight was in MMA and Vale Tudo was the arena for the Gracies to carry the family name on their backs. When matt Hughes had the Kimura turned straight figure-4 armlock on Royce, Royce didn't even grimace, and his elbow was about to go. I don't think we'll ever see one of those guys tap in MMA. That's completely unrelated to what Renzo is talking about in the context of training.
 
Not tapping is not an option for most people if they'd like to continue training regularly. Multi-month layoffs, insurance deductibles, and physical therapy make progressing in BJJ rather difficult. While there is something to be said for not tapping too early, the concept of not tapping at all in training is just plain silly. In competition, not tapping, while very risky, is an option simply because there are some competitors who will instinctively not "snap" an opponents arm or leg, even if they have their opponent caught dead to rights and will eventually let go of the sub giving their opponent a second chance. I still think the risk is probably not worth the reward even at the professional level and almost certainly not at any level lower.
 
I do recall Pedro giving more than a few lectures during class on the importance of tapping during training and the importance of putting yourself in bad positions so you can eventually learn from them. I believe he even had us practice a drill afterwards where the goal was to get tapped like 5 times during 10 minutes or something.

I think what he was trying to convey was to not have too much pride during training and to being open to learning by making mistakes.
 
have you ever worked guillotine escapes? a lot of the time, it's not a smooth escape. it takes nerves and it takes grit. if u tap early some of your escapes won't be as solid.
i'm not saying anything about pedro's strategy, i'm just saying i understand delaying a tap to work an escape.
 
If im going to get hurt, I'm tapping in either training or in a competition.

Pride needs to be swallowed some times.
 
fighting.spirit said:
Check my post, that is above yours.
Click to expand...

I train under Renzo & his black belts. Tapping in training is encouraged.

I see where you are going - and the two mindsets do exist as I have trained in places where people don't tap in training. But using Renzo as the example is wrong.
 
fighting.spirit said:
Hmm. Very interesting thoery. Thanks for the input, man. I've yet to completely understand the concept, though. I feel that being in that "struggling to get out" situation teaches you something. That type of position takes you back to your instinctual defense habits. So if you tend to have bad ones, they change and you develop proper technique even in that position. Does that make sense?
Click to expand...

Struggling out of a tap doesn't teach you anything but how to use muscle. I train with Keith and I have talked with professor Sauer. The idea is tap early but don't just restart. If I get caught, I tap and then tell my partner to hold the sub without hurting me and let me work a good technical escape. It may take two or three times but I get to work on solid techniqu and my partner gets to work on flowing from one sub to another.
I really haven't tapped out many of the white belts in months because I'm to the point were I get a triangle for example, and just hold it. They escape and I flow into omoplata or arm bar or sweep etc.
Tapping early has kept my injuries down to minimal also. When the time comes for competition well I don't tap so easy. Apples vs oranges.
 
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