RDA's S&C Coach criticizing Cain's S&C training

[The Judas Pig]

Cain is the best hw since fedor retired so whatever.

What good is that when he never fights.

 

[Balthasar]

Yeah, anyone who has done starting strength will realise Cain trains like a retard in those vids. The guy has some interesting ideas and if I was a fighter looking to increase my power and endurance I'd probably spend some training cycles with him.

He does get a little too unconventional at times, strength isn't completely movement specific like the guy often claims, usually it's sports coaches that buy into the whole replicating a sports movements with resistance training. "How would using the sled help in the octagon"? "Pushing a guy into the cage..?" Even rogan could see some flaws in his thinking. (Not that the prowler sled even needs to replicate an exact movement a fighter uses in the cage to have some carry over to their performance).

Goes without saying, if you go from benching 100 pounds and squatting 150 pounds to benching 300 pounds and squatting 450 pounds then you will feel stronger in the cage by several orders of magnitude.
(Traditional barbell strength training also isn't usually trained via low reps of 80 percent+ of 1RM, something he constantly is criticising).

Yeah, I'm not that anti-powerlifting as him, he gave a bit of weird answers to Joe but he didn't really say much about it so it's hard to say what his thoughts are on it exactly. I'd like to know to what Russian studies he's referring to that supposedly show that heavy resistance training causes a deduction in punching power because those studies easy to misinterpet. I also dunno where he gets his theory from with the movie adapting to the slower speed of slower lifts and it's the first time I'm hearing that strenght training is slow twitch.

But overall I think his methods are good. It's sad that a lot of S&C training still consists of only powerlifting, as if it is so sport specific and ahead of what other people are doing in training. In the 1960s everybody was just doing cardio, then around the 90s people started doing bodybuilding, in 2010 everybody started doing powerlifting, and now I hope people will start doing speed training, plyometric training, power training, anaerobic endurance training etc. which seems what this dude is doing and without much the UFC Countdown shit.

First time I've really enjoyed a Joe Rogan podcast, I think, does he have more S&C or nutritionists on his podcast?

 

[Balthasar]

These days people advise squatting for everything. Not strong enough? Squat! Not powerfull enough? Squat! Want to punch harder? Squat! Girlfriend dumped you, about to lose your apparment, addicted to heroine and diagnosed with schizophrenia? Squat! And don't even think about not hitting parallel.

lol

 

[RJ43]

I just can't understand how people think they are so much smarter than Cain's people when Cain is arguably the best conditioned HW of all time. Strength and especially endurance have never been a problem for Cain. Who gives a shit if he does leg extensions or chases chickens around a backyard in Brooklyn...the guy is exemplary when it comes to performing when the time comes.

I can see the argument that maybe his training is causing his injures and maybe a radically different training protocol would make him even better, but sometimes if it ain't broke you don't fix it.

 

[Deleted member 448575]

Cain is the best hw since fedor! Retired so whatever.

Yeah, he's close to retiring at this point.

 

[Balthasar]

I just can't understand how people think they are so much smarter than Cain's people when Cain is arguably the best conditioned HW of all time. Strength and especially endurance have never been a problem for Cain. Who gives a shit if he does leg extensions or chases chickens around a backyard in Brooklyn...the guy is exemplary when it comes to performing when the time comes.

I can see the argument that maybe his training is causing his injures and maybe a radically different training protocol would make him even better, but sometimes if it ain't broke you don't fix it.

Yeah, I think the critique is a bit much and the people who say it can't even properly explain why leg extensions aren't good. And moreover, leg extensions aren't THAT different from bench pressing or cleans or anything like that, and those ARE things that MMA S&C coaches these days rely on for enhancing physical performance, and that is also what most people will say (most people meaning people with big mouths on internet forums). But what you're saying isn't really much of an argument for leg extensions. If Cain only trains ballet for his fight against Werdum, in a pink tutu, while listening to Miley Cyrus 24/7, and wins from Werdum, that doesn't mean it isn't ridicilous.

 

[ZFury]

Cain's will and heart got him to where he is. His training has definitely been detrimental to his health, and that guy Curson knows his stuff. I think Cain should reach out to him and he'd be even better. Cain's style is explosive movement with solid technique and that's the focus of Curson's program. Cain should definitely think about it.

 

[FoghornLeghorn]

If there is anything at all Cain Velasquez does impeccably, it's strength and conditioning.


That said, if there's anything Cain could not do worse, it's train safely.

 

[ColdSierra]

I just can't understand how people think they are so much smarter than Cain's people when Cain is arguably the best conditioned HW of all time. Strength and especially endurance have never been a problem for Cain. Who gives a shit if he does leg extensions or chases chickens around a backyard in Brooklyn...the guy is exemplary when it comes to performing when the time comes.

I can see the argument that maybe his training is causing his injures and maybe a radically different training protocol would make him even better, but sometimes if it ain't broke you don't fix it.

It is broken... Cain, I mean.

 

[RJ43]

Yeah, I think the critique is a bit much and the people who say it can't even properly explain why leg extensions aren't good. But what you're saying isn't really much of an argument for leg extensions. If Cain only trains ballet for his fight against Werdum, in a pink tutu, while listening to Miley Cyrus 24/7, and wins from Werdum, that doesn't mean it isn't ridicilous.

I'm not advocating leg extensions, I'm advocating letting the results speak for themselves and reserve the right to criticize when the performance warrants it. The proof is in the pudding and Cain is the poster child for conditioning and has never had any difficulties in the strength/power area either.

Now if this training is causing the injuries then I think that's a very legitimate discussion. Maybe someone knows more than I do about his injuries but it seems like the actual MMA training intensity at AKA is causing it rather than misuse of a kettle bell.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Yeah, I'm not that anti-powerlifting as him, he gave a bit of weird answers to Joe but he didn't really say much about it so it's hard to say what his thoughts are on it exactly. I'd like to know to what Russian studies he's referring to that supposedly show that heavy resistance training causes a deduction in punching power because those studies easy to misinterpet. I also dunno where he gets his theory from with the movie adapting to the slower speed of slower lifts and it's the first time I'm hearing that strenght training is slow twitch.

But overall I think his methods are good. It's sad that a lot of S&C training still consists of only powerlifting, as if it is so sport specific and ahead of what other people are doing in training. In the 1960s everybody was just doing cardio, then around the 90s people started doing bodybuilding, in 2010 everybody started doing powerlifting, and now I hope people will start doing speed training, plyometric training, power training, anaerobic endurance training etc. which seems what this dude is doing and without much the UFC Countdown shit.

First time I've really enjoyed a Joe Rogan podcast, I think, does he have more S&C or nutritionists on his podcast?

I'm not sure if he said this, I don't remember him saying this other than he said he knows most boxers or MMA fighters don't like lifting weights as it makes them feel sluggish and slow. I don't remember him saying lifting weights won't increase your power but that it has the negatives of making someone feel more cumbersome and slower.

You misunderstood him on this part, he was saying that if you weight train but you don't lift the weights in an explosive manner you will be training slow twitch, like if you were lifting heavy weight but doing so slowly through the range of motion instead of an explosion and just controlling the negative.

I enjoyed this podcast a lot too and it would be cool if this guy released some of the work outs he does that he got from Marinovich.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

These days people advise squatting for everything. Not strong enough? Squat! Not powerfull enough? Squat! Want to punch harder? Squat! Girlfriend dumped you, about to lose your apparment, addicted to heroine and diagnosed with schizophrenia? Squat! And don't even think about not hitting parallel.

lol

lol, it is pretty funny but all the physical trainers I know say that squatting and dead lifting are 2 of the best full body lifts you can do, like if you are only going to do 2 types of lifts those should be the ones.

 

[Miiiiiiighty]

I just can't understand how people think they are so much smarter than Cain's people when Cain is arguably the best conditioned HW of all time. Strength and especially endurance have never been a problem for Cain. Who gives a shit if he does leg extensions or chases chickens around a backyard in Brooklyn...the guy is exemplary when it comes to performing when the time comes.

I can see the argument that maybe his training is causing his injures and maybe a radically different training protocol would make him even better, but sometimes if it ain't broke you don't fix it.

Maybe that's because he is doing a stupid move, that puts A LOT of pressure on the knee cap, badly at that with a ton of weight ??
Same with the super heavy pseudo KB swings, which helps nothing except his grip..


His last fight was 1.5 years ago and he's getting chain injuries to the knees since the first JDS fight.
Also doing dumbass moves doesn't mean they are responsible for his excellent cardio/conditionning.. This isn't how science works..
That doesn't mean he is not doing a majority of things right to be where he's at but his strength training clearly isn't one of them..


To end, I will just say this, and paraphrasis a great trainer in the process :

Many great athletes had their great success/results despite of the training they were doing, not thanks to it...

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Maybe that's because he is doing a stupid move, that puts A LOT of pressure on the knee cap, badly at that with a ton of weight ??
Same with the super heavy pseudo KB swings, which helps nothing except his grip..


His last fight was 1.5 years ago and he's getting chain injuries to the knees since the first JDS fight.
Also doing dumbass moves doesn't mean they are responsible for his excellent cardio/conditionning.. This isn't how science works..
That doesn't mean he is not doing a majority of things right to be where he's at but his strength training clearly isn't one of them..


To end, I will just say this, and paraphrasis a great trainer in the process :

Many great athletes had their great success/results despite of the training they were doing, not thanks to it...

Cain is a genetic freak in terms of cardio as well, he was clearly born with a level of cardio most guys cannot attain, no matter how hard they work.

Attributing his cardio to his trainer who has no other fighters like Cain is silly so I'm in 100% agreement with you on this.

 

[Balthasar]

I'm not advocating leg extensions, I'm advocating letting the results speak for themselves and reserve the right to criticize when the performance warrants it. The proof is in the pudding and Cain is the poster child for conditioning and has never had any difficulties in the strength/power area either.

Now if this training is causing the injuries then I think that's a very legitimate discussion. Maybe someone knows more than I do about his injuries but it seems like the actual MMA training intensity at AKA is causing it rather than misuse of a kettle bell.

Yeah well, just as the knee injury isn't per se the cause of the S&C training, so the performance against Werdum isn't per se the cause of the S&C training. If the overall results of Cain are good you don't know yet what exactly it is attributed to, might not be the leg extensions.

But the knee injury to my limited knowledge can be likely caused by the leg extension because from what I've read them they are dangerous for the knee because in normal leg movement the hamstring is always activated to some extent, giving support to the ACL, whereas with leg extensions the hamstring is shut out. And Cain isn't just doing them to slowly build up from an injury in a machine that is well tested scientifically and where intensity is easily adjusted (for those reasons the leg extension can be good) but he's doing it till failure in an explosive way causing the force to go from the muscles to the joints and ligaments.

 

[Balthasar]

I'm not sure if he said this, I don't remember him saying this other than he said he knows most boxers or MMA fighters don't like lifting weights as it makes them feel sluggish and slow. I don't remember him saying lifting weights won't increase your power but that it has the negatives of making someone feel more cumbersome and slower.

You misunderstood him on this part, he was saying that if you weight train but you don't lift the weights in an explosive manner you will be training slow twitch, like if you were lifting heavy weight but doing so slowly through the range of motion instead of an explosion and just controlling the negative.

I enjoyed this podcast a lot too and it would be cool if this guy released some of the work outs he does that he got from Marinovich.

I'm quite sure he said something like "Heavy strength training decreases punching power..." and then he mumbled a bit "...the Russians proved it"

And heavy strength training the way I know the term, can only be done at one speed. With intensities above 90% 1RM, wether you do it as slow as possible or as fast as possible it barely matters because the weight is so heavy and it's just impossible to do it slow because you'll burn out and impossible to do it fast because it's just so frickin heavy.

lol, it is pretty funny but all the physical trainers I know say that squatting and dead lifting are 2 of the best full body lifts you can do, like if you are only going to do 2 types of lifts those should be the ones.

Yeah, they're great exercises and in my opinion also the best when it comes to strength training but that doesn't mean that they are applicable to any situation and that you can't do without them.

And personal trainers, well...., do they have a bit of a degree or anything? Because you know, we are posting in a thread that involves a guy who trains the UFC Heavyweight Champion and is making him do leg extensions till failure after a knee injury.

 

[rjmbrd]

I'm not sure if he said this, I don't remember him saying this other than he said he knows most boxers or MMA fighters don't like lifting weights as it makes them feel sluggish and slow. I don't remember him saying lifting weights won't increase your power but that it has the negatives of making someone feel more cumbersome and slower.

You misunderstood him on this part, he was saying that if you weight train but you don't lift the weights in an explosive manner you will be training slow twitch, like if you were lifting heavy weight but doing so slowly through the range of motion instead of an explosion and just controlling the negative.

I enjoyed this podcast a lot too and it would be cool if this guy released some of the work outs he does that he got from Marinovich.

Thank you for mentioning this. I actually had to skip back and have a second listen to some of his points around this topic. At first pass it seems to skirt a lot of 'traditional' and common S&C practices, but in context it made a lot of sense.

I do believe for fighters modality is everything. The Marv bros built the only version of BJ Penn that had 5 rounds of cardio and no problem exploding in championship rounds. It was really incredible to see his transformation.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Thank you for mentioning this. I actually had to skip back and have a second listen to some of his points around this topic. At first pass it seems to skirt a lot of 'traditional' and common S&C practices, but in context it made a lot of sense.

I do believe for fighters modality is everything. The Marv bros built the only version of BJ Penn that had 5 rounds of cardio and no problem exploding in championship rounds. It was really incredible to see his transformation.

No problem, it seemed like this trainer is all about sport specific training and movements and doesn't like to do isolation exercises much especially ones that do not relate to the sport that his athletes compete in.

I would really like to see a work out routine from him or Marv for an average person just for general fitness, it would be really cool to try.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

I'm quite sure he said something like "Heavy strength training decreases punching power..." and then he mumbled a bit "...the Russians proved it"

And heavy strength training the way I know the term, can only be done at one speed. With intensities above 90% 1RM, wether you do it as slow as possible or as fast as possible it barely matters because the weight is so heavy and it's just impossible to do it slow because you'll burn out and impossible to do it fast because it's just so frickin heavy.



Yeah, they're great exercises and in my opinion also the best when it comes to strength training but that doesn't mean that they are applicable to any situation and that you can't do without them.

And personal trainers, well...., do they have a bit of a degree or anything? Because you know, we are posting in a thread that involves a guy who trains the UFC Heavyweight Champion and is making him do leg extensions till failure after a knee injury.

I might have to watch it again, I remember him saying boxers don't like it cause it can reduce their range of motion, make them slower and just not feel as well due to their range of motion being reduced.

His point from what I understand it is that you condition your body by how you train and if you lift heavy weights up slowly and put them down slowly you are teaching your body not to be explosive, but if you lift the weight quickly but lower it slowly you are training to be explosive but are also making sure you control the weight to work on the stabilizer muscles as well.

The ones I know are certified but i'm not sure what Cain's trainer's qualifications are but maybe he is too even though he doesn't seem to be a good trainer based on that kettle bell video and the leg extensions.

 

[Balthasar]

I might have to watch it again, I remember him saying boxers don't like it cause it can reduce their range of motion, make them slower and just not feel as well due to their range of motion being reduced.

His point from what I understand it is that you condition your body by how you train and if you lift heavy weights up slowly and put them down slowly you are teaching your body not to be explosive, but if you lift the weight quickly but lower it slowly you are training to be explosive but are also making sure you control the weight to work on the stabilizer muscles as well.

The ones I know are certified but i'm not sure what Cain's trainer's qualifications are but maybe he is too even though he doesn't seem to be a good trainer based on that kettle bell video and the leg extensions.

Yeah, he says your body adapts to the speed of its training. He explained it with running and the findings that if you run downhill (above max speed) you'll become faster, and that if you run uphill you'll become slower. But I'm not convinced that the latter is also true. A lot of these studies aren't set up to determin things like this and they are also difficult to interpret. For example there are some studies with high jumpers with who they trained with squats. The result was that their jump decreased, but it's difficult to say that squats don't have a place in a high jumper's training because while they squatted they didn't continue their normal training. So it's not that weird their high jump decreased because they hadn't jumped in weeks. And if they would add the squats on top of their normal training and their performance would decrease that also wouldn't say much per se because they might be doubling their training load and are overtraining or just simply not have enough energy anymore for their jump training.

Lifting heavy I thought is always done at (sub)maximal speed and engages primarily fast twitch muscle. You'd think it helps with exploding and building fast twitch muscle both which is used in running. So if you don't have enough muscle and power to run fast you'd think that lifting heavy helps. But yeah, in order to actually run fast you do need to actually run fast, it would be a bit naive to think that you can run fast without actually ever running fast. You do need to actually move at that speed and that requires you to become better at that exact movement and that exact speed. You'll have to deal with lighter loads, lighter stretch reflex, more frequent contractions, faster relaxation, etc. If you suck at that, you simply can't be fast, even if you can squat and deadlift 500 pounds and such, so I don't find it that suprising he came across a strong dude that couldn't sprint.

It's the same with endurance, I think, like a race of 1 km, that requires cardio aswell as muscle. You can have the muscles to keep up the pace but you still need enough oxygen to keep running at optimal speed. But likewise you can be great cardiovascular and have too weak muscles, as in that you can't even GET AT the required pace that is necessary to be competitive at the race. You'd think that the required muscle and strenght/power for running long distance running, which is very low, would just come from doing long distance training itself, but apparently it is shown that strength training even helps professional long distance runners.

So for cardio and also for speed you will need certain physical requirements, and those requirements (fast twitch muscles, muscle size, strenght, etc.) you can also train with strength training. Only muscle can make you move after all. And not just that, there are also suggestions that non-specific training can increase performance of those who are pro at what they do, as I said about professional long distance runners but also as the dude himself pointed out with the downhill running, that is also an example of non-specific training. If running at 110% speed is good it also stands to reason that running at 90% can be beneficial, I think.

MMA fighters however may already have a good enough level of strength and muscle and anaerobic capabilities, from just sparring and doing skill training. Not lacking in such a way in that strength training should take priority over plyometric exercise and such. But I don't find his arguments against strength training as he explained in this podcast convincing unless he actually shows these Russian studies and can show me strength training is slow twitch.

Damn, fucking long post.