R1 puts to bed the Khabib V Tony question

So what you're saying is MMA Math = true when it comes to wrestling?

(Not disagreeing wit that though, just pointing it out')
 
Edgar-Oliveira was 7.5 years ago in a different weight class. It has little relevance for whether 2020 Oliveira is strong enough to handle elite grapplers.
Edgar-Oliveira was 7.5 years ago in a different weight class. It has little relevance for whether 2020 Oliveira is strong enough to handle elite grapplers.
Well since then Oliveira hasn’t done anything to change that narrative even with his great win streak. So it’ll stand until he changes it
 
Oliveira has only been submitted 3 times in his career: by Pettis, Lamas and Jim Miller.

Pettis and Lamas did not really happen "on the ground," they happened because Oliveira shot desperate takedowns and got caught in guillotines.
Miller is the UFC record holder for submissions at LW. Oliveira was attacking a leg lock but sometimes when you're in a leg entanglement your own leg can get caught. Oliveira screwed up by not trying to kick Miller's hands away with his free leg.

Oliveira can be overly aggressive at times, and he used to have really mediocre standup, but he's gotten a lot better in that area.
You are justifying Oliveira’s submission losses. I don’t even have to justify khabib’s since has has never been submitted and Oliveira has been three times. how does he has a chance against khabib again? I can’t believe I am defending Khabib. Trust me Is hope someone can whoop his ass, Oliveira or anyone else for that matter.
 
You are justifying Oliveira’s submission losses. I don’t even have to justify khabib’s since has has never been submitted and Oliveira has been three times. how does he has a chance against khabib again? I can’t believe I am defending Khabib. Trust me Is hope someone can whoop his ass, Oliveira or anyone else for that matter.
I am a Khabib fan, just a bigger Oliveira fan. Obviously Khabib has the better resume by far and if they fought, Khabib would be heavily favored.

I guess my overall point is that Oliveira has never been taken down dominated on the ground and submitted. If he fights Khabib, it will likely be the first time that happens to him. His 3 submission losses happened because he made a mistake and got caught. He stands a chance if he can avoid making those specific mistakes.
 
I am a Khabib fan, just a bigger Oliveira fan. Obviously Khabib has the better resume by far and if they fought, Khabib would be heavily favored.

I guess my overall point is that Oliveira has never been taken down dominated on the ground and submitted. If he fights Khabib, it will likely be the first time that happens to him. His 3 submission losses happened because he made a mistake and got caught. He stands a chance if he can avoid making those specific mistakes.
Oliviera hasn’t been owned on ground from bell to bell in a full fight. The reason is the best wrestler he has fought is Kevin Lee.
I am a Khabib fan, just a bigger Oliveira fan. Obviously Khabib has the better resume by far and if they fought, Khabib would be heavily favored.

I guess my overall point is that Oliveira has never been taken down dominated on the ground and submitted. If he fights Khabib, it will likely be the first time that happens to him. His 3 submission losses happened because he made a mistake and got caught. He stands a chance if he can avoid making those specific mistakes.
Have you seen his fight with lamas? While he is a crafty grappler he has way too many holes on ground. Khabib will choke him out in second rd after beating him up for a bit.
 
Oliviera hasn’t been owned on ground from bell to bell in a full fight. The reason is the best wrestler he has fought is Kevin Lee.

Have you seen his fight with lamas? While he is a crafty grappler he has way too many holes on ground. Khabib will choke him out in second rd after beating him up for a bit.
Just watched Oliveira-Lamas. Very entertaining fight. The fight-ending guillotine wasn't set up the way I thought. Lamas is probably the best overall grappler Oliveira has faced (BJJ black belt, NCAA DIII All-American wrestler, never been submitted). Very impressive performance by Lamas.

I do think the bell was the only thing saving Lamas from the RNC Oliveira had at the end of R1.
 
Khabib lost round 3 to Conor and round 1 to Gaethje
And both Tony and Charles have been finished , lost multiple fights and loads of rounds to gatekeepers . Not exactly the same as a razor thin round to champ champ and I don’t know anybody that thinks he lost either round.
 
Tony and Charles are actually quite similar. Both have good stand up and a solid ground game, both had long winning streaks of beating gatekeepers without beating any top 3’s and only one top 5 who was coming off a loss. Both have lost to gatekeepers and neither would ever beat Khabib, Conor, Dustin or Justin.
 
Khabib lost round 3 to Conor and round 1 to Gaethje
Its officially. Unofficially I think he lost 2 rounds with Tibau, but didnt lost with Justin.
 
Said this from way back, Tony is good of his back against lower tier grapplers, but he gives up dominant positions and that trait was always going to cost him vs Khabib. People also seem to forget that there are different kinds of bottom games, you have to manage both offense and defense as well of your back in order to be successful. Tony has a lot of OFFENSIVE tools from his back and due to his length and flexibility he can hit certain unorthodox positions and submissions.

But as for all of his offensive strengths, he lacks in the defensive aspects of his bottom game, giving up a lot of dominant positions against guys like Kevin Lee for example. We have all seen how giving up dominant positions to a guy like Khabib is going to play out. An example of a guy with a good defensive and offensive guard is Nate Diaz, we've seen Nate get hurt, get dropped, get taken down, yet it seems really hard to get to a dominant position on him.
 
Yes, but don't underrate Oliveira. There is a case to be made that his ground game is close to the level of Beebs.
I don’t think anyone underrates his ground game. I just think that Khabib is a lot more versatile on the ground than Oliveira. It’s a mix of several styles - wrestling, sambo, judo, BJJ. I don’t think anyone can beat Khabib on the ground.
 
Tony was always easy to take down. He was lucky his opponents sucked at defending subs while on top. I never believed the hype and nobody should have.

His 12 fight win streak had lots of luck involved. How many times was he taken down or rocked but his opponents found a way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory? Did tony beat Kevin Lee or did Kevin Lee beat Kevin Lee in their fight for instance?

Now tony is saying his retirement is still a long ways away.. yeah well BJ and Anderson were also a long ways away from retiring and still continued to fight and rack up losses till they were shown the door. Tony’s retirement might be years away but his days as one of the top of the division already went away a few years ago.
 
Charles is the only submission threat to Khabib



Khabib still pounds him out though
 
To be fair, Khabib vs. Tony might've been somewhat interesting and fun back in 2012-2014...Khabib's early UFC days when his grappling wasn't quite as refined and Tony was a lot younger and more game. I'm quite sure Khabib still wins, though. Any time in the last couple of years would've been a one-sided beatdown by Khabib.
 
Khalabib called it a while back. Tony took way too much damage in the Gaethje fight.

he can get better, for sure, but he'll never never be the same again.
 
Now tony is saying his retirement is still a long ways away.. yeah well BJ and Anderson were also a long ways away from retiring and still continued to fight and rack up losses till they were shown the door. Tony’s retirement might be years away but his days as one of the top of the division already went away a few years ago.

It will be sad to see him end his career with a bunch of losses, too....and maybe even go to another org then to bareknuckle and get even more brain damage. Sadly, Tony seems like just the kind of fighter to do that. Ideally, he should retire now or fight a couple of guys with his age and wear-n-tear (maybe Jim Miller) then retire. But I don't think that's his plan.
 
Khalabib called it a while back. Tony took way too much damage in the Gaethje fight.

he can get better, for sure, but he'll never never be the same again.

Nah, there's not much he can do to get better at this point. He's consistently getting beaten to the punch, and his speed/reflexes will only get worse with age and damage. And he's not going to suddenly develop much better wrestling (offensive and defensive) at age 36. If he didn't learn when he wrestled in college (or if he's forgotten), it's not coming now. Changing gameplans, training with new coaches/fighters can help marginally in a few areas, but he's not beating the top guys at this point no matter what.
 
Nah, there's not much he can do to get better at this point. He's consistently getting beaten to the punch, and his speed/reflexes will only get worse with age and damage. And he's not going to suddenly develop much better wrestling (offensive and defensive) at age 36. If he didn't learn when he wrestled in college (or if he's forgotten), it's not coming now. Changing gameplans, training with new coaches/fighters can help marginally in a few areas, but he's not beating the top guys at this point no matter what.

I'd argue that he could revamp his entire approach to the game if he used his batshit insanity to commit to such. he just can't be going headfirst, literally, into these fights anymore. his durability factor took a huge hit. but he can manage it a lot better during his fights, know what I mean?

but you're right in the end. in that interview with Bret Okomoto, I saw shades of BJ come from him, how he doesn't believe in having 'coaches' - similar to the ego BJ once possessed way back when.
 
Completely, I had hope for Tony/Khabib to make a comeback, but the Olivera fight squashed any potential. Tony will need a Couture like resurrection at his age to even mention Khabib/Tony again sadly...
 
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