R1 puts to bed the Khabib V Tony question

[moosaev]

If Renzo says he's tough to submit, I buy what renzo's selling. I don't ever hear gym stories about chucky getting people who don't normally tap to tap. Maybe it happens, but there's no legend about him so I'm not inclined to believe it happens that frequently. But with Khabib, you got bjj guys saying man this guy is tough to submit, he's actually good at bjj, etc.

Yes I’m not surprised, because Mma is way different than pure bjj. The rule set, the tools you can use. Khabib has so many tricks that you simply never pickup in a Bjj training room.

 

[MCS]

The Kevin Lee mount to get saved by the bell started it, and Oliveira put the nail on the coffin on how that top vs bottom game would've went.

 

[Candy Routure]

Khabib would have smashed.. I though it would have been closer at the time, but lots changes in a short period of time.

 

[Peli]

Yes I’m not surprised, because Mma is way different than pure bjj. The rule set, the tools you can use. Khabib has so many tricks that you simply never pickup in a Bjj training room.

Agreed. I think khabib beats oliveira the same way he beat Justin tbh. Charles is not going to look like a fish out of water on the ground but I believe the gameplan will be make charles work, make him tired and then take him down. What I saw vs kevin lee was charles was explosive for the first round looking for submissions off his back. In the second round, not so much. Kevin lee had a lot of control time on the ground.

Khabib will get chucky to the floor, chucky will be tired and he will be GNP until he gives up to a submission or technical finish to GNP.

 

[Mike]

Sure it's not like Tony is clearly in decline or anything.

 

[moosaev]

Agreed. I think khabib beats oliveira the same way he beat Justin tbh. Charles is not going to look like a fish out of water on the ground but I believe the gameplan will be make charles work, make him tired and then take him down. What I saw vs kevin lee was charles was explosive for the first round looking for submissions off his back. In the second round, not so much. Kevin lee had a lot of control time on the ground.

Khabib will get chucky to the floor, chucky will be tired and he will be GNP until he gives up to a submission or technical finish to GNP.

Also, let’s be honest, Oliveira isn’t the mentally strongest guy in the UFC. He will cave under the pressure. Khabib would walk him down.

 

[Chael_Sonnen]

I don’t think there is evidence to say Oliveira’s bottom game is way better than Khabib’s. As the saying goes “the absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence”. Just because Khabib doesn’t utilize his bottom game (he doesn’t need to) doesn’t mean it’s worse than Oliveira’s.

Also, you can’t say Oliveira’s grappling is getting close just because his top control is getting better. Like I said, for Oliveira to close the gap with Khabib he has to demonstrate that the way he integrates his top and bottom game, his take downs and his transitions all into a system is getting better. Khabib is far far ahead because of not only tools, but how he mixes and matches the tools together. All the permutations of options it gives him is very hard to match. People are underestimating how much further ahead Khabib is than everyone else.

You are thinking that there is no evidence of Oliveira's grappling being integrated. You are completely wrong.

Do you realise that Oliveria just beat a better grappler than ANYONE Khabib has faced in the UFC. RDA is close, but Tony is bettter.

We have evidence of Oliveira's top and bottom game being well integrated, we have evidence of a solid takedown game, and we have evidence of his subs and transitions as well.

I agree with your point about the lack of evidence not being evidence for Khabibs bottom game, but you have to understand that Oliveira is using a traditional BJJ background, and will spend far more time on his bottom game than Khabib will. That alone is enough for me to say Oliveira's bottom game is better, just like I am saying Khabibs wrestling is far better.

As I say, I agree that Khabib is a better grappler, with far better wrestling and chain wrestling. But, Oliveiras bottom game better, and his top game has proven to be incredibly nasty, and not all that far off Khabibs.

 

[moosaev]

You are thinking that there is no evidence of Oliveira's grappling being integrated. You are completely wrong.

Do you realise that Oliveria just beat a better grappler than ANYONE Khabib has faced in the UFC. RDA is close, but Tony is bettter.

We have evidence of Oliveira's top and bottom game being well integrated, we have evidence of a solid takedown game, and we have evidence of his subs and transitions as well.

I agree with your point about the lack of evidence not being evidence for Khabibs bottom game, but you have to understand that Oliveira is using a traditional BJJ background, and will spend far more time on his bottom game than Khabib will. That alone is enough for me to say Oliveira's bottom game is better, just like I am saying Khabibs wrestling is far better.

As I say, I agree that Khabib is a better grappler, with far better wrestling and chain wrestling. But, Oliveiras bottom game better, and his top game has proven to be incredibly nasty, and not all that far off Khabibs.

Where we disagree is I don’t think beating this version of Tony is that great of an accomplishment. @Peli and I have been saying Tony is over the hill for a while now, way before the Gaethje fight. I’m honestly not impressed that with a win over this version of Tony. This fight told us more about Tony than it did about Oliveira imo.

Btw I’m not hating on Oliveira, his ground game is nasty and he’s a stud. But it’s premature to compare him in anyway to Khabib.

 

[Chael_Sonnen]

Where we disagree is I don’t think beating this version of Tony is that great of an accomplishment. @Peli and I have been saying Tony is over the hill for a while now, way before the Gaethje fight. I’m honestly not impressed that with a win over this version of Tony. This fight told us more about Tony than it did about Oliveira imo.

Btw I’m not hating on Oliveira, his ground game is nasty and he’s a stud. But it’s premature to compare him in anyway to Khabib.

I agree Tony is over the hill, but he still has a better ground game than anyone Khabib has faced.

Agree to disagree bro. I agree Khabib is clearly the better grappler, but I don't think he is so far ahead as you think.

 

[91 seconds]

There was absolutely no reason why anyone would have been favoring Tony but there were a shitload on this forum that not only favored him but were saying he was going to fuck Khabibs shit up. You know there is a thread somewhere that has all of that in it with a lot of members who are saying the opposite now were giving it to Tony then.

It ain't like Ferg couldn't win but atleast admit he'd be the major underdog and rightfully so. The thing about trying to be a contrarion and going against Khabib is it's not like we're seeing the guy start to get beat up and showing signs of slowing down. If anything he was getting more dominant. It didn't look like he was about to lose anytime soon.

 

[chardog]

I don’t think there is evidence to say Oliveira’s bottom game is way better than Khabib’s. As the saying goes “the absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence”. Just because Khabib doesn’t utilize his bottom game (he doesn’t need to) doesn’t mean it’s worse than Oliveira’s.

Also, you can’t say Oliveira’s grappling is getting close just because his top control is getting better. Like I said, for Oliveira to close the gap with Khabib he has to demonstrate that the way he integrates his top and bottom game, his take downs and his transitions all into a system is getting better. Khabib is far far ahead because of not only tools, but how he mixes and matches the tools together. All the permutations of options it gives him is very hard to match. People are underestimating how much further ahead Khabib is than everyone else.

actually, I would say that absence of evidence IS evidence of absence in MMA. Getting put to the test in the gym is not the same, and people were saying about that recently with Gaetche. He has no ground game and it was proven. If you're not tested on the ground in a pro fight, it's not proven. Khabib is extremely hard to take down, so it's doesnt need to be proven.

 

[Safton]

At best you could argue that Tony's chances may have been marginally higher if the fight had happened as scheduled back in 2015 or whenever, but even then that's a pretty tough sell.

I would have liked to see it regardless of course, but I do feel like this fight answered some questions and set the matter to rest in hindsight.

 

[Beherit]

Yes, but don't underrate Oliveira. There is a case to be made that his ground game is close to the level of Beebs.

top game and wrestling, not at all

 

[Doug Money]

Let us Tony fans come to that conclusion on our own pls

 

[moosaev]

actually, I would say that absence of evidence IS evidence of absence in MMA. Getting put to the test in the gym is not the same, and people were saying about that recently with Gaetche. He has no ground game and it was proven. If you're not tested on the ground in a pro fight, it's not proven. Khabib is extremely hard to take down, so it's doesnt need to be proven.

Your argument is a logical fallacy, its called "reasoning by analogy". Essentially you're suggesting that because Gaethje didn't demonstrate a ground game, and he was shown to have no ground game, then Khabib must not have a bottom game because he hasn't shown it. Analogies aren't evidence.

Furthermore, Khabib HAS been tested on the bottom in his pro career, just not in the UFC. As someone else pointed out, Khabib actually faced stronger grapplers in Russia than he did the UFC. So he's not only shown that he has a bottom game, he's shown that its extremely deadly.

 

[Sticko]

Khabib is better wrestler

Both are great at top game

Chales is light years a head of khabib off his back.

I'm not sure this is true. We almost never get to see Khabib on his back because nobody can get him there. But when Abel Trujillo took him down he immediately got triangled.

 

[fortheo]

Oh stop it and I despise khabib. Oliveira has been submitted by so many and Frankie made him look shit on ground. as much as I hate Khabib he would submit or tko him in round 1 or 2.

Frankie barely went to the mat with do bronx. It was like 14 minutes of striking, then brief moments of edgar landing a takedown, then disengaging. What was funny was watching little edgar do jumping punches to reach the much taller oliveira's chin

The lamas fight is a better example for what you're trying to say

 

[Sticko]

Oh stop it and I despise khabib. Oliveira has been submitted by so many and Frankie made him look shit on ground. as much as I hate Khabib he would submit or tko him in round 1 or 2.

Oliveira has only been submitted 3 times in his career: by Pettis, Lamas and Jim Miller.

Pettis and Lamas did not really happen "on the ground," they happened because Oliveira shot desperate takedowns and got caught in guillotines.
Miller is the UFC record holder for submissions at LW. Oliveira was attacking a leg lock but sometimes when you're in a leg entanglement your own leg can get caught. Oliveira screwed up by not trying to kick Miller's hands away with his free leg.

Oliveira can be overly aggressive at times, and he used to have really mediocre standup, but he's gotten a lot better in that area.

 

[Sticko]

While Oliveira’s grappling is awesome he ain’t close to number 2. Watch what Frankie Edgar did to Oliveira in their fight? A strong wrestler controls and fucks him up. He is crafty but not strong enough for elite grapplers.

Edgar-Oliveira was 7.5 years ago in a different weight class. It has little relevance for whether 2020 Oliveira is strong enough to handle elite grapplers.

 

[Sticko]

Beebs never lost a round

Khabib lost round 3 to Conor and round 1 to Gaethje