R1 puts to bed the Khabib V Tony question

[Satan's Daddy.]

Charles made me a fan after that performance I was on the border line before because i don't remember watching his previous fights, but this one will be implemented into my mind for a long, long time because of how he picked Tony up like he weighed like a box of newspapers, just an effortless performance despite how annoying the ref was chirping in his ear every ten seconds he had ground control.

 

[gandharva]

I think Oliveira has a chance against kabib. Dude is crazy good on the ground.

LOL
This is the same narrative before the gaethje fight
Oliveira was out wrestled by Frankie Edgar, Khabib would have mop the floor with Oliveira and finished him inside 2 rounds.

 

[Chael_Sonnen]

Beebs never lost a round Chales has lost fights. Both have evolved but look at who they are fighting. One decisioned a 37 year old past prime fighter and the other finished a 32 year old prime fighter who just mauled the 37 year old and finished him. There are levels to this game and Beebs is on a level nobody has ever seen.

That is a terrible argument, and here is why.
I am comparing their ground games. Not their record, not their standup.
Gaethje mauled Tony standing. He didn't go to the ground ONCE.
Khabib beating Gaethje has nothing to do with Charles beating Tony.

Khabibs wrestling is on another planet compared to Charles, but Charles bottom game is much better than Beebs. Its a difference in styles.

As I say, Khabibs ground game is better, but its not nearly as cut and dry as you are suggesting.

 

[Chael_Sonnen]

Is Charles better than Davi Ramos at teh jitz?

In MMA? Yes.
In a grappling comp? Probably not, but it would be interesting.

 

[moosaev]

Khabib's Russian opposition gave him more work on the ground which is the funny thing, in the UFC no one really had anything to offer him down there.

100% agree. The Russians actually extended Khabib to the point where he was fighting off his back quite a bit. UFC fighters typically lasted longer against Khabib because they were way more conservative against him. The more aggressive you are against Khabib the quicker he finishes you, because you’ll put yourself in bad spots.

 

[balkanbomber85]

Tony will turn 37 in less than 2 months, if you really believe that Tony from yesterday looked somehow close to the Tony from 2017/2018 then you are either delusional or a hater.

The Lee fight is not an indicator, most people remember this one totally wrong. Lee took tony down with around 2min left in the first, Tony attempted like 3 submissions and let himself open (like he usually does), then Lee mounted him with 35 seconds left, stayed in the mount for like 30 seconds and landed a few punches but nothing opened Tony up or so. In the 2nd Tony overtook the fight, nearly ko-d Lee at the very end. in the 3rd used a td from Lee to pull guard and subbed him. it was nothing like a domination of Lee other than the last 30 secs of the first where he did no real damage, other than that Tony overtook the fight and finished him.

 

[old school 2]

That is a terrible argument, and here is why.
I am comparing their ground games. Not their record, not their standup.
Gaethje mauled Tony standing. He didn't go to the ground ONCE.
Khabib beating Gaethje has nothing to do with Charles beating Tony.

Khabibs wrestling is on another planet compared to Charles, but Charles bottom game is much better than Beebs. Its a difference in styles.

As I say, Khabibs ground game is better, but its not nearly as cut and dry as you are suggesting.

Watch Charles get submitted by Ricardo Lamas first and then get back to me about which one of us has a weak argument on ground game.

 

[GordoBarraBJJ]

This. I'm not trying to say that Khabibs wrestling isn't light years ahead of Olives, because it is.

But Charles makes up for it off his back.

And although Khabib is more damaging on top, Olives has a significantly more dangerous sub game in my opinion. I doubt khabib would have even gone for that armbar in round 1.

Yeah - that is what i meant and should have said for both.

They're both light years (hyperbole) better at one aspect of the grappling game and I'd say even in one.

Wrestling = Khabib
Top game = Tie
Bottom game = Charles

 

[chardog]

A bit of revisionist history, they should have fought years ago, before Tony took massive career damage and aged quite a bit. Their first boy was scheduled five years ago, fighters change in five years, not always better. Jon Jones was a much different fighter than now, khabib got better, Ferguson got worse.

 

[Goober stoober]

Hate to admit that it’s true.

always thought tony was a perfect style to beat khabib but now I’m not sure.

Tony didn’t have many answers for an elite grappler on top of him and was almost finished a couple times.

 

[Chael_Sonnen]

Yeah - that is what i meant and should have said for both.

They're both light years (hyperbole) better at one aspect of the grappling game and I'd say even in one.

Wrestling = Khabib
Top game = Tie
Bottom game = Charles

I agree, although until Oliveira fights another top guy, I have to put his top game slightly below Khabibs.

If he does what he did to Tony though again, then its time for re-evaluation.

Really impressive stuff from Oliveira.

 

[Chael_Sonnen]

Watch Charles get submitted by Ricardo Lamas first and then get back to me about which one of us has a weak argument on ground game.

You are making the mistake of thinking that Charles hasn't improved.

I know thinking is hard for you, but do try.

 

[moosaev]

You are making the mistake of thinking that Charles hasn't improved.

I know thinking is hard for you, but do try.

You’re making assumptions about Khabib’s bottom game and sub threats based on the fact that he doesn’t utilize either too much (in the UFC). From a holistic standpoint Oliveira’s grappling is significantly behind Khabib’s because it isn’t as integrative as Khabib’s. Khabib’s grappling has judo, sambo, wrestling, and bjj all melded together into a system. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts when it comes to his grappling. Therefore you can’t just take each aspect of grappling out and then compare them with Oliveira in those areas, that’s not how it works. Until we see Oliveira combine all these aspects fluidly and with consistency we cannot say he’s in Khabib’s league yet in grappling. Not even close tbh.

 

[old school 2]

You are making the mistake of thinking that Charles hasn't improved.

I know thinking is hard for you, but do try.

Khabib has improved as well and lost to no one ever and beaten far better easier. Think about it longer this time. Somebody has to be the best right now and beating 37 year old Tony but losing to Felder doesn’t make it Charles. It is the guy with the strap.

 

[Chael_Sonnen]

You’re making assumptions about Khabib’s bottom game and sub threats based on the fact that he doesn’t utilize either too much (in the UFC). From a holistic standpoint Oliveira’s grappling is significantly behind Khabib’s because it isn’t as integrative as Khabib’s. Khabib’s grappling has judo, sambo, wrestling, and bjj all melded together into a system. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts when it comes to his grappling. Therefore you can’t just take each aspect of grappling out and then compare them with Oliveira in those areas, that’s not how it works. Until we see Oliveira combine all these aspects fluidly and with consistency we cannot say he’s in Khabib’s league yet in grappling. Not even close tbh.

If you notice, I actually said that Khabibs wrestling/takedown game was far superior to Oliveira.

But Oliveiras bottom game is way better thank Khabibs. I don't know how you can debate that.
And Oliveiras top game, while not on the level of Khabibs yet, is getting there.

So obviously, as I said, Khabib is a better grappler. But Oliveira is getting close.

 

[Peli]

You’re making assumptions about Khabib’s bottom game and sub threats based on the fact that he doesn’t utilize either too much (in the UFC). From a holistic standpoint Oliveira’s grappling is significantly behind Khabib’s because it isn’t as integrative as Khabib’s. Khabib’s grappling has judo, sambo, wrestling, and bjj all melded together into a system. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts when it comes to his grappling. Therefore you can’t just take each aspect of grappling out and then compare them with Oliveira in those areas, that’s not how it works. Until we see Oliveira combine all these aspects fluidly and with consistency we cannot say he’s in Khabib’s league yet in grappling. Not even close tbh.

He does what he always does. Oversell the opponent. Oliveiras bottom game could be elite, I'd still say Khabib's is better. You got elite black belts and other bjj guys who say he's hard to submit. Oliveira can have all the tricks in the world, if he can't get khabib off him to try to submit khabib, it won't mean shit.

He couldn't do that to Kevin Lee iirc. He's not going to be able to handle that to khabib.

 

[J85909266]

I honestly still don't see how anybody was going to beat Khabib outside of the chance of a really well placed punch stunning or KOing him. Even if that happened, I would still pick Khabib in a rematch. I never saw how Tony beat Khabib. Don't see Olivera doing it either.

 

[moosaev]

If you notice, I actually said that Khabibs wrestling/takedown game was far superior to Oliveira.

But Oliveiras bottom game is way better thank Khabibs. I don't know how you can debate that.
And Oliveiras top game, while not on the level of Khabibs yet, is getting there.

So obviously, as I said, Khabib is a better grappler. But Oliveira is getting close.

I don’t think there is evidence to say Oliveira’s bottom game is way better than Khabib’s. As the saying goes “the absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence”. Just because Khabib doesn’t utilize his bottom game (he doesn’t need to) doesn’t mean it’s worse than Oliveira’s.

Also, you can’t say Oliveira’s grappling is getting close just because his top control is getting better. Like I said, for Oliveira to close the gap with Khabib he has to demonstrate that the way he integrates his top and bottom game, his take downs and his transitions all into a system is getting better. Khabib is far far ahead because of not only tools, but how he mixes and matches the tools together. All the permutations of options it gives him is very hard to match. People are underestimating how much further ahead Khabib is than everyone else.

 

[moosaev]

He does what he always does. Oversell the opponent. Oliveiras bottom game could be elite, I'd still say Khabib's is better. You got elite black belts and other bjj guys who say he's hard to submit. Oliveira can have all the tricks in the world, if he can't get khabib off him to try to submit khabib, it won't mean shit.

He couldn't do that to Kevin Lee iirc. He's not going to be able to handle that to khabib.

Yes, it feels like groundhogs day smh. Anybody that has a standpoint performance at LW will all of a sudden the guy to beat khabib

 

[Peli]

Yes, it feels like groundhogs day smh. Anybody that has a standpoint performance at LW will all of a sudden the guy to beat khabib

If Renzo says he's tough to submit, I buy what renzo's selling. I don't ever hear gym stories about chucky getting people who don't normally tap to tap. Maybe it happens, but there's no legend about him so I'm not inclined to believe it happens that frequently. But with Khabib, you got bjj guys saying man this guy is tough to submit, he's actually good at bjj, etc.