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Question about Royce Gracie vs Akebono in MMA

As far as Minowaman goes. I dunno. I love me some Minowanan! I actually think his fight with Bob Sapp looked more suspect.
IMO, no way that was fixed--people just underestimated how debilitating the leglock Sapp was placed in was. It was a horrible position and actually, Minowa injured some other--likely more flexible people--with that same hold. Also, Minowa's face was actually rearranged by Sapp during the brief interval Sapp pounded on him.

Also--lets recall, DREAM had no notion that Minowa was going to win that tournament and cause the stir he did with his victory. So little were they prepared for any of that, they didn't even have a championship belt ready. A little girl famously made a belt for Minowa, feeling bad that he didn't get one for winning the tournament.
 
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On a similar topic, one fight that I strongly suspect is fixed is Minowaman vs Hong Man Choi.
Definitely not, but on what basis do you found those suspicions? You don't think a guy who was capable of submitting skilled grapplers like Yuki Sasaki and BJJ blackbelt Silmar Rodrigo, amongst others, couldn't submit Hong Man Choi if he was able to get it to the ground?
 
Sapp has Minowamans back and had him pancaked. Instead of just dropping bombs on Minowa, he rolls over for a RNC and Minowa escapes and leg locks him from the guard.
Sapp also went for a heel-hook on Fujita that didn't really do much to help his cause. The armbar he finished Takayama with wasn't necessarily the most expedient path to victory either. Sapp making what you view as a poor decision isn't really evidence of a worked fight. He also wasn't necessarily the "same" Sapp that fought Nogueira. He was a more shopworn model, perhaps severely so, given the severe violence inflicted upon him in his loss to Fujita.
 
Perhaps took a dive is a better word. Akebono gave little effort. It was a paycheck. That's my opinion. Morons (not saying you) will obviously believe whatever they want.

As far as Minowaman goes. I dunno. I love me some Minowanan! I actually think his fight with Bob Sapp looked more suspect. Choi actually beat Minowa up for most of the fight until he got caught. Sapp has Minowamans back and had him pancaked. Instead of just dropping bombs on Minowa, he rolls over for a RNC and Minowa escapes and leg locks him from the guard. Think about when Bob Sapp got serious against Nogueira? He almost killed him by driving his head through the mat. Let's just say when the size gap is that great... suspend your disbelief. Lol
Yes, Bob Sapp vs Minowaman was even more suspicious.
To be fair I find the whole Super Hulk tournament fishy, minus the final between Minowaman and Sokoudjou.
 
Definitely not, but on what basis do you found those suspicions? You don't think a guy who was capable of submitting skilled grapplers like Yuki Sasaki and BJJ blackbelt Silmar Rodrigo, amongst others, couldn't submit Hong Man Choi if he was able to get it to the ground?
I found them on Hong man Choi barely trying to strike and just lightly tapping him instead of hitting full force for the whole fight and on him apparently just laying on his back semi-voluntarily on the last takedown attempt.

Out of curiosity, what to you think about Royce vs Akebono istead?
Do you think it was a fix?
 
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I found them on Hong man Choi barely trying to strike and just lightly tapping him instead of hitting full force for the whole fight and on him apparently just laying on his back semi-voluntarily on the last takedown attempt.
Regarding Royce-Akebono, no, I don't think it was fixed. But I also hate to throw that word around lightly as I think all too many people do around these parts. It is a major accusation to levy and I don't think it should be put on the table unless you have actual evidence of it. I think a lot of times, fix accusations in MMA say more about the limited knowledge of the accuser than about the fight itself (for example, people thinking Tokoro-Nakamura was fixed because the finish was similar to a finish in a pro-wrestling match, although in fact, the finish was really just the execution of a fundamentally sound counter to a calf-crusher attempt). In the case of Akebono-Royce, you have a guy who was past his athletic prime with a body not necessarily suited to mobility on the ground and without any real background ground grappling versus someone who was an MMA legend and certainly a master ground-fighter. Basically, you had the scenario of a high-level BJJ practitioner versus a really, really heavy guy. Not so different than Daiju Takase versus Emmanuel Yarborough. Not an easy feat to beat someone that much bigger, but definitely not impossible.

As far as Choi-Minowa, Choi blocked the takedown attempt and had Minowa stuffed, but Minowa sat through, took an angle and finished it. It was actually a similar scenario to how Nogueira took Sapp down. There wasn't anything semi-voluntary about it, although Choi was clearly tired. I also wouldn't qualify Choi's punches as taps and certainly, Minowa's overhand right in the second round was no tap. Look at the slow motion on that. That was thrown to KO Choi, Choi ate it and kept going.
 
Yes, Bob Sapp vs Minowaman was even more suspicious.
To be fair I find the whole Super Hulk tournament fishy, minus the final between Minowaman and Sokoudjou.
The only thing fishy about it was the matchmaking and the fact that they didn't even have a title belt ready for Minowa when he won.
 
Regarding Royce-Akebono, no, I don't think it was fixed. But I also hate to throw that word around lightly as I think all too many people do around these parts. It is a major accusation to levy and I don't think it should be put on the table unless you have actual evidence of it. I think a lot of times, fix accusations in MMA say more about the limited knowledge of the accuser than about the fight itself.
I don't have much knowledge and that's exactly why I'm asking for opinions and explanations to more knowledgeable guy about things that may seems "fishy" or inexplainable to me.
Mine are not accusations, but request for other's people opinions and inputs to help form my own opinion, and of course I feel free to express them even without "evidence" (after all, if I had evidence I would not need to discuss and analyze it).
P.S: as a very small guy with a litte of BJJ training I would love for Royce vs Akebono and Minowa vs Choi etc....to be true and I sincerely hope that they are not fixed, so I'm surely not biased against them or something.

As far as Choi-Minowa, Choi blocked the takedown attempt and had Minowa stuffed, but Minowa sat through, took an angle and finished it. It was actually a similar scenario to how Nogueira took Sapp down. There wasn't anything semi-voluntary about it, although Choi was clearly tired.
I just went to rewatch it and you may be right, It's a lot more "natural" than I remembered, altough it's still remain a little ambiguos to me.

I also wouldn't qualify Choi's punches as taps and certainly, Minowa's overhand right in the second round was no tap. Look at the slow motion on that. That was thrown to KO Choi, Choi ate it and kept going.
To me it seems that Choi barely tried to strike Minowa despite the massive reach and size advantage, which doesn't make much sense.
Minowa was clearly hitting him as hard as he could, yes, but not the other way around, and to fix a fight there is no need of the designed winner even knowing it.
 
I don't have much knowledge and that's exactly why I'm asking for opinions and explanations to more knowledgeable guy about things that may seems "fishy" or inexplainable to me.
Mine are not accusations, but request for other's people opinions and inputs to help form my own opinion, and of course I feel free to express them even without "evidence" (after all, if I had evidence I would not need to discuss and analyze it).
P.S: as a very small guy with a litte of BJJ training I would love for Royce vs Akebono and Minowa vs Choi etc....to be true and I sincerely hope that they are not fixed, so I'm surely not biased against them or something.


I just went to rewatch it and you may be right, It's a lot more "natural" than I remembered, altough it's still remain a little ambiguos to me.


To me it seems that Choi barely tried to strike Minowa despite the massive reach and size advantage, which doesn't make much sense.
Minowa was clearly hitting him as hard as he could, yes, but not the other way around, and to fix a fight there is no need of the designed winner even knowing it.

Being baffled at a fighter's approach to a fight doesn't mean the fight was fixed--there are any number of reasons Choi might not have just let loose with his striking, one of them being that he didn't want to get taken down while over committing, which would be an entirely reasonable concern. But the fact is that he did throw strikes and did tag Minowa plenty of times. Does his striking look so different from other fights Choi was involved in during this era? He didn't have blazing hand-speed or anything. Punches that might look like taps from Hong Man Choi are doubtless a lot harder than they look. He took big shots and kept going and he threw plenty of his own, including a knee to Minowa's face from the four-point if I recall.

And while I don't want to take away from Minowa's win, I do believe this occurred after Choi was forced to remove the tumor on his pituitary gland, which clearly made a major difference in his ability to carry his own weight around. That said, he looks a lot better against Minowa than he went on to look in some subsequent efforts.

As far as bigger guys losing to smaller ones--have you been to many grappling tournaments that had an absolute division at the end of the tournament? I've seen mediocre grapplers submit guys who appeared to have, if memory serves, at least 50 plus pounds on them if not closer to 100 pounds. Specifically, I remember when an overweight high school wrestling coach with presumably minimal training entered the absolute division and lost to a guy who looked literally half his size who was no great shakes as a grappler.

The last tournament I competed in to date, I beat a guy who was significantly younger than me, maybe 19-20, but was also 34 pounds heavier. He normally didn't compete in adult advanced divisions, but decided to step up. Admittedly, I didn't submit him, but I don't think he scored a point on me. It was clear that one of the major differences was just age and experience. And actually, in that very same tournament, I enjoyed a similar size advantage--maybe even a greater one--against a guy named Tim Jenny and ended up getting nearly submitted a couple times and trailing on points before I caught him with a toe-hold. So I've experienced both ends of it.

Things are different when all else is equal between a big man and a little man, but certainly, a smaller man with significantly superior ground skills can submit a bigger man. In Minowa's case, a lot of it is his doggedness, durability and the fact that is attempts are often sudden and explosive and fully committed to. In a lot of ways, its ideal for someone who is bigger but might be slower to react.
 
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I don't have much knowledge and that's exactly why I'm asking for opinions and explanations to more knowledgeable guy about things that may seems "fishy" or inexplainable to me.
Mine are not accusations, but request for other's people opinions and inputs to help form my own opinion, and of course I feel free to express them even without "evidence"
Fair enough, but I think you can try to understand what happened with out levying the accusation of a work. I'm not trying to pick on you but I think it is a serious claim which shouldn't be thrown around lightly.

For instance, I might try to understand what thought process led Allan Goes to switch from throwing those Capoeira-style kicks at Mark Coleman to shooting a double leg on the Olympic wrestler. In some ways, it seems an inexplicable strategy...just as Pele's decision to take Carlos Newton down when he seemed on the way to KO'ing him seems inexplicable. Trying to understand those decisions or pointing out how, from our remove, they appear strange and poor decisions is a different matter from implying that, because we don't know why they took the route they did, the fight is possibly a work. There are decisions I've made in competition that in hindsight weren't the best idea and which I'd be hard pressed to explain the rationale behind and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

But I think we should hesitate to call work, because when you do that, you're possibly robbing someone of the credit they've earned, often through blood, sweat and tears.
 
Regarding Royce-Akebono, no, I don't think it was fixed. But I also hate to throw that word around lightly as I think all too many people do around these parts. It is a major accusation to levy and I don't think it should be put on the table unless you have actual evidence of it. I think a lot of times, fix accusations in MMA say more about the limited knowledge of the accuser than about the fight itself (for example, people thinking Tokoro-Nakamura was fixed because the finish was similar to a finish in a pro-wrestling match, although in fact, the finish was really just the execution of a fundamentally sound counter to a calf-crusher attempt). In the case of Akebono-Royce, you have a guy who was past his athletic prime with a body not necessarily suited to mobility on the ground and without any real background ground grappling versus someone who was an MMA legend and certainly a master ground-fighter. Basically, you had the scenario of a high-level BJJ practitioner versus a really, really heavy guy. Not so different than Daiju Takase versus Emmanuel Yarborough. Not an easy feat to beat someone that much bigger, but definitely not impossible.

Exactly, but as a moron once said; "Morons will obviously believe whatever they want."

Especially if they are emotionally invested in this, I must add.
 
Perhaps took a dive is a better word. Akebono gave little effort. It was a paycheck. That's my opinion. Morons (not saying you) will obviously believe whatever they want.

As far as Minowaman goes. I dunno. I love me some Minowanan! I actually think his fight with Bob Sapp looked more suspect. Choi actually beat Minowa up for most of the fight until he got caught. Sapp has Minowamans back and had him pancaked. Instead of just dropping bombs on Minowa, he rolls over for a RNC and Minowa escapes and leg locks him from the guard. Think about when Bob Sapp got serious against Nogueira? He almost killed him by driving his head through the mat. Let's just say when the size gap is that great... suspend your disbelief. Lol
May I also ask your opinion on Butterbean vs Minowaman and Genki Sudo vs Butterbean?
 
Exactly, but as a moron once said; "Morons will obviously believe whatever they want."

Especially if they are emotionally invested in this, I must add.
Literally none of the people in this thread who cast any sort of suspicion on Royce versus Akebono seem emotionally invested at all.
 
Literally none of the people in this thread who cast any sort of suspicion on Royce versus Akebono seem emotionally invested at all.

So the Judo nutrider "Basically Just Judo" guy saying that Royce Gracie only won Akebono in a MMA fight because the fight was fixed ... isn't emotionally invested?


OK.

Edit: "only won" not lost.
 
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Being baffled at a fighter's approach to a fight doesn't mean the fight was fixed--there are any number of reasons Choi might not have just let loose with his striking, one of them being that he didn't want to get taken down while over committing, which would be an entirely reasonable concern. But the fact is that he did throw strikes and did tag Minowa plenty of times. Does his striking look so different from other fights Choi was involved in during this era? He didn't have blazing hand-speed or anything. Punches that might look like taps from Hong Man Choi are doubtless a lot harder than they look. He took big shots and kept going and he threw plenty of his own, including a knee to Minowa's face from the four-point if I recall.

And while I don't want to take away from Minowa's win, I do believe this occurred after Choi was forced to remove the tumor on his pituitary gland, which clearly made a major difference in his ability to carry his own weight around. That said, he looks a lot better against Minowa than he went on to look in some subsequent efforts.

As far as bigger guys losing to smaller ones--have you been to many grappling tournaments that had an absolute division at the end of the tournament? I've seen mediocre grapplers submit guys who appeared to have, if memory serves, at least 50 plus pounds on them if not closer to 100 pounds. Specifically, I remember when an overweight high school wrestling coach with presumably minimal training entered the absolute division and lost to a guy who looked literally half his size who was no great shakes as a grappler.
Oh don't get me wrong, I know perfectly well that'is possible to beat a guy who is much bigger and stronger than you with grappling, and I know because I have did it myself several times despite barely knowing the basics.

I even know that is possible for an highly skilled fighter to submit monstruos freak like Bob Sapp or Hong Man Choi, just see Noguiera beating the former or Fedor submitting the latter in fight that were obviously real without a doubt.

I was just analyzing those specific fights.
 
Literally none of the people in this thread who cast any sort of suspicion on Royce versus Akebono seem emotionally invested at all.
I'm emotionally invested in the sense that I sincerely hope that Royce vs Akebono is real since it would be cool as fuck, but I can't help but being suspicious due to Akebono not striking from the top at all.
Therefore I hope that someone can fully convince me that it wasn't fixed with sound reasoning so I can go back to fully enjoying it lol
 
Therefore I hope that someone can fully convince me that it wasn't fixed with sound reasoning so I can go back to fully enjoying it lol
Well, I don't think you have established any sound reasons for believing either fight was a work. If Choi was going to lay down for Minowa, he had many opportunities to do so but he kept fighting. In Sapp's case, he was put in a horrible position which has seriously injured other people. And again, DREAM famously didn't even have a belt prepared for Minowa, because they didn't expect him to win the tournament or make the sort of impact that he did with the win.
 
Well, I don't think you have established any sound reasons for believing either fight was a work. If Choi was going to lay down for Minowa, he had many opportunities to do so but he kept fighting. In Sapp's case, he was put in a horrible position which has seriously injured other people. And again, DREAM famously didn't even have a belt prepared for Minowa, because they didn't expect him to win the tournament or make the sort of impact that he did with the win.
I was talking about the Royce vs Akebono fight.

For the Minowaman vs Hong Man Choi one, I actually have rewatched it today (I had seen it many years ago) by paying great attention and I have changed my mind, I don't think it was fixed, altough it's clear while it would probably look that way to an untrained person (eg. he would not understand why Choi was scared to approach Minowa's open guard on the ground).

But it's also not that important, since I already have a much better example of a 220 cm 160 kg freak being defeated by a normal sized guy to watch and enjoy, when an in much better shape Hong Man Choi was submitted by Fedor in an impressive fashion.
For the same reason I don't care much about Minowaman vs Bob Sapp since, well, we already have his epic fight against Noguiera.

On the contrary I don't have any other example of a 250 kg sumo wrestler being submitted by a small BJJ guy other than Royce vs Akebono, so I care more about discussing it.
 
On the contrary I don't have any other example of a 250 kg sumo wrestler being submitted by a small BJJ guy other than Royce vs Akebono, so I care more about discussing it.
Then watch Emmnauel Yarborough versus Daiju Takase, for one example. I'm sure there are others I can think of but that is the most obvious one.

You know that Akebono was forced to retire from sumo, because as a yokozuna, it is embarrassing to the sport for one of his stature to have a losing record? He didn't want to stop competing and that's why he took up K-1 and MMA, but clearly he was a fish out of water for many reasons. The body that served him so well in sumo didn't necessarily help in MMA or K-1 and he was well past his athletic peak in any event, as his forced retirement evidences.
 
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Then watch Emmnauel Yarborough versus Daiju Takase, for one example. I'm sure there are others I can think of but that is the most obvious one.
I have already saw it but it's not the same thing at all, he was a 600 + guy literally unable to move, that's too extreme, Akebono was still in much better shape, was more mobile and a greater threat.
Plus Takase panic escaped from underneath him and beat him up while on top (with Yarborough literally being too fat to stand up on his own), it's nowhere near the epicness of Royce controlling Akebono from underneath and submitting him.
 
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