Question about Royce Gracie vs Akebono in MMA

[Esile]

Watching this fight I don't understand one thing, why Akebono does not strike Royce Gracie at all when he is inside his guard?

I guess than one good punch from top would be enough to mess Royce pretty badly given his massive size.

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

Watching this fight I don't understand one thing, why Akebono does not strike Royce Gracie at all when he is inside his guard?

I guess than one good punch from top would be enough to mess Royce pretty badly given his massive size.

I have no idea. If you hear Dan Severn talk about his fight with Royce he says his punches were "peripheral" instead of in the head because he didn't know or didn't want to hurt Royce, or something, if you believe Dan or not it is another story, maybe with Akebono it is the same thing.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Watching this fight I don't understand one thing, why Akebono does not strike Royce Gracie at all when he is inside his guard?

I guess than one good punch from top would be enough to mess Royce pretty badly given his massive size.

It looks like he attempts a punch at 4:51, but is blocked by Royce's knee shield and is already getting put into omoplata.

I will say that in hindsight I've gained a new respect for Royce's MMA skills when you consider his fights with bigger guys who knew how to wrestle like Akebono, Severn (who had sambo training + international level wrestler), Shamrock, Kimo, et al. I used to think of him as "budget Rickson" but Royce might actually have the better pedigree as far as matches and wins in MMA. Regardless, subbing trained guys that much bigger and stronger off your back with strikes in play is damn impressive and you're not doing that vs. skilled wrestlers without being a damn good MMA fighter yourself.

 

[Esile]

It looks like he attempts a punch at 4:51, but is blocked by Royce's knee shield and is already getting put into omoplata.

Yes I noticed that, but I don't get why he tried to punch exactly just once despite being on top of him him for two minutes and having plenty of opportunities.
Royce was even punching him frot the bottom repeadetly, so he is not like he was 100% focused on breaking his posture and preventing Akebono's strikes, maybe I'm wrong and I'm missing something but he looked pretty exposed to a counter punch in several instances to me.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Yes I noticed that, but I don't get why he tried to punch exactly just once despite being on top of him him for two minutes and having plenty of opportunities.
Royce was even punching him frot the bottom repeadetly, so he is not like he was 100% focused on breaking his posture and preventing Akebono's strikes, maybe I'm wrong and I'm missing something but he looked pretty exposed to a counter punch in several instances to me.

Only conjecture on my part, but Akebono's game plan appears to have been to smother Royce, maybe gas him out a little - and Royce does a good job of never letting him get settled, he's always moving so Akebono never gets stabilized to try to land some shots. This being in 2004, Akebono had probably seen others get caught in arm bars or triangles from over-committing to punches in guard and wanted to avoid that - in reality, he was also probably too fat to be able to posture up effectively.

 

[Ryo]

I think you guys are over analyzing this too much. Akebono showed up for a paycheck. Not with some grand gameplan to win. If he was 100 percent committed to winning his gameplan would have been totally different. It's pretty obvious watching the fight.

 

[Esile]

Only conjecture on my part, but Akebono's game plan appears to have been to smother Royce, maybe gas him out a little - and Royce does a good job of never letting him get settled, he's always moving so Akebono never gets stabilized to try to land some shots. This being in 2004, Akebono had probably seen others get caught in arm bars or triangles from over-committing to punches in guard and wanted to avoid that - in reality, he was also probably too fat to be able to posture up effectively.

Thanks for your input man, may I ask you your take on this too?
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/another-question-about-rampage-vs-sakuraba-back-in-pride.4119548/

 

[Esile]

I think you guys are over analyzing this too much. Akebono showed up for a paycheck. Not with some grand gameplan to win. If he was 100 percent committed to winning his gameplan would have been totally different. It's pretty obvious watching the fight.

But those things are not contradictories, saying that his gameplan was just "try to smother him with my weight until he is exhausted" means exactly that he did not put much tought or training and effort into it.
Or do you think that it may have been fixed, by chance?

 

[Ryo]

But those things are not contradictories, saying that his gameplan was just "try to smother him with my weight until he is exhausted" means exactly that he did not put much tought or training and effort into it.
Or do you think that it may have been fixed, by chance?

Yes ofcourse, there is a very good chance it was fixed. Or atleast Akebono went in there and just looking to exit as soon as possible and collect that check. Ask yourself why would a 550 pound man who in his prime was a world class sumo wrestler, go to the ground with Tiny Royce? The ground was literally Roycs only way to win. It's not like he was going to KO Akebono. Why would he just go there. Also look at that fight between Hong Man Choi and Fedor. When Fedor goes to armbar Choi, he literally gets picked up like a child with one arm. Fedor is bigger and stronger than Royce. Compare that with Akebono who is 100 pound heavier than Choi! Lol

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

To say that Royce Gracie had fixed fights ... seems wrong.

And if that fight was fixed they could have done a better one.

Akebono is fat, soon big, from there to draw conclusions that because he didn't lift a man of 80 kilos then the fight was fixed ...

And more, Royce fought other big guys before, fights that I don't believe were fixed ...

Want a reason why punches weren't thrown? Go and watch Dan Severn's video about his fight with Royce. A reason why Akebono went to the ground with Royce? I don’t know, but I bet on stupidity and the fact that Sumo is not a striking art to begin with.

 

[Esile]

Yes ofcourse, there is a very good chance it was fixed. Or atleast Akebono went in there and just looking to exit as soon as possible and collect that check. Ask yourself why would a 550 pound man who in his prime was a world class sumo wrestler, go to the ground with Tiny Royce? The ground was literally Roycs only way to win. It's not like he was going to KO Akebono. Why would he just go there. Also look at that fight between Hong Man Choi and Fedor. When Fedor goes to armbar Choi, he literally gets picked up like a child with one arm. Fedor is bigger and stronger than Royce. Compare that with Akebono who is 100 pound heavier than Choi! Lol

I also think that it's possible it was fixed, but I'm not sure, I would like to discuss and analyze this possibility tough.

About you arguments:

-Well, if you are 550 lbs with a 30 seconds gas tank and a quicker, faster, better conditioned 170 lbs opponent throw himself at your feet, would you not try jump at the opportunity to use your weight and squash him?
You would probably think that's your best chance, while on the feet he can run circle around you until you are tired.

-Royce doesn't try to armbar Akebono tough, he put him in an omoplata, those are completely different moves.
Plus Hong Man Choi is surely much stronger than Akebono, the guy is severely obese, I think he would struggle a lot to just lift himself from the ground, let alone with another person hanging on in an extremely mechanically disadvantageous position.

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

I also think that it's possible it was fixed, but I'm not sure, I would like to discuss and analyze this possibility tough.

If that piece of sh1t of a fight was fixed ... it would have been a better idea if it had been for real then.

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

Plus Hong Man Choi is surely much stronger than Akebono, the guy is severely obese, I think he would struggle a lot to just lift himself from the ground, let alone with another person hanging on in an extremely mechanically disadvantageous position.

This.

Not to mention that the idea that the size of Akebono should have changed the outcome of the fight and then mention a fight that Hong Man Choi lost to Fedor is contradictory.

Akebono in this fight is, as far as I know, just an obese Sumo wrestler, Royce ... I don't need to say who he is or what he practices. Teach Akebono enough of Muay Thai and BJJ, hell only one of these two would be enough in fact, and the result could have been different. Of course, if he were not obese it would also help.

 

[Ryo]

I also think that it's possible it was fixed, but I'm not sure, I would like to discuss and analyze this possibility tough.

About you arguments:

-Well, if you are 550 lbs with a 30 seconds gas tank and a quicker, faster, better conditioned 170 lbs opponent throw himself at your feet, would you not try jump at the opportunity to use your weight and squash him?
You would probably think that's your best chance, while on the feet he can run circle around you until you are tired.

-Royce doesn't try to armbar Akebono tough, he put him in an omoplata, those are completely different moves.
Plus Hong Man Choi is surely much stronger than Akebono, the guy is severely obese, I think he would struggle a lot to just lift himself from the ground, let alone with another person hanging on in an extremely mechanically disadvantageous position.

No, avoiding the ground with Royce should have been the gameplan.

Akebono had K-1 kickboxing matches with heavyweight strikers teeing off on him and went to decision. His gas tank could have handled a guy like Royce who literally could not have even seriously hurt him with Strikes.

And LOL at Saying that Hong Man choi is stronger than Akebono who was one of the heaviest and strongest Yokozuna. He made a career of pushing and throwing 400 pound men around. You must not know much about Sumo if you assume their fatness indicate weakness. Jeez...

My point with giving the example with Fedor was not that the techniques are the same, but more to demonstrate the strength difference when the size difference is so huge. Akebono was not determined at all to try and get out.

Akebono had been training kickboxing and BJJ. He had matches already against K-1 heavyweights and was being trained by Ray Sefo at the time. Claiming Akebono was just an obese Sumo wreslter is dumb anyway considering Sumo wrestlers are pretty athletic considering their extreme size.

Btw... I did not say Royce Gracie had fixed fights... there is more than one way to fix a fight. One competitor doesn't have to know. Second of all, Akebono was having terrible financial trouble at the time. Which is why he was fighting in the first place. This match was a huge draw so he was guaranteed to make a fat check showing up whether he gave much effort in the fight or not. Which obviously there wasnt much effort given.

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

Serra vs. St. Pierre I is more likely to have been fixed, and I don't believe it was. Akebono vs Royce being fixed is ridiculous, they could have let Akebono win and it would have been better, a famous Sumo wrestler beating the fuck1ng Royce Gracie.

And then a rematch.

If that fight was fixed ... it was a tremendous idiocy.

 

[Esile]

And LOL at Saying that Hong Man choi is stronger than Akebono who was one of the heaviest and strongest Yokozuna. He made a career of pushing and throwing 400 pound men around. You must not know much about Sumo if you assume their fatness indicate weakness. Jeez...

I actually know less than zero about Sumo, so don't be surprised if I may say dumb shit.
Could you please educate me on the subject a bit ? I'm serious, I'm actually interested.

 

[Esile]

And LOL at Saying that Hong Man choi is stronger than Akebono who was one of the heaviest and strongest Yokozuna. He made a career of pushing and throwing 400 pound men around. You must not know much about Sumo if you assume their fatness indicate weakness. Jeez...

My point with giving the example with Fedor was not that the techniques are the same, but more to demonstrate the strength difference when the size difference is so huge. Akebono was not determined at all to try and get out.

On a similar topic, one fight that I strongly suspect is fixed is Minowaman vs Hong Man Choi.
What do you think about that one?

 

[ChickenBrother]

Thanks for your input man, may I ask you your take on this too?
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/another-question-about-rampage-vs-sakuraba-back-in-pride.4119548/

I agree with @EndlessCritic's take - looks to me like Rampage was aware of, and wanted to avoid slamming himself into a deeper triangle. Having been on the receiving end of a slam from bottom triangle (was in practice but guy was a dick), as well as having picked up other guys from inside their triangle (but putting them down with control if they didn't release), you're only putting yourself into a worse position if you don't slam with enough impact.

 

[Ryo]

On a similar topic, one fight that I strongly suspect is fixed is Minowaman vs Hong Man Choi.
What do you think about that one?

Perhaps took a dive is a better word. Akebono gave little effort. It was a paycheck. That's my opinion. Morons (not saying you) will obviously believe whatever they want.

As far as Minowaman goes. I dunno. I love me some Minowanan! I actually think his fight with Bob Sapp looked more suspect. Choi actually beat Minowa up for most of the fight until he got caught. Sapp has Minowamans back and had him pancaked. Instead of just dropping bombs on Minowa, he rolls over for a RNC and Minowa escapes and leg locks him from the guard. Think about when Bob Sapp got serious against Nogueira? He almost killed him by driving his head through the mat. Let's just say when the size gap is that great... suspend your disbelief. Lol

 

[ChickenBrother]

On a similar topic, one fight that I strongly suspect is fixed is Minowaman vs Hong Man Choi.
What do you think about that one?

I don't have a strong opinion on that one, but I think Hong Man Choi had a notable decline in size after his tumor was removed in 2008. When he fought Fedor in 2007 he was in prime 360 lbs acromegaly giant freak mode coming off wins over guys like Semmy Schilt in K-1. During the first exchange on the ground, Choi hit Fedor with a glancing blow that left a huge fist print over Fedor's face like the Kareem footprint on Bruce Lee in Game of Death.

In hindsight most people think of Choi and Sapp as cans but when they fought Fedor and Big Nog respectively, they were both huge athletic freaks with actual gastanks and the ability to win vs. top guys.