Social Punk rock band kicks out drummer because of refusal to take vaccine

[Blayt7hh]

absolutely not true, this is just a fallacy due to marketing. Young artists are just easier to market, it can take years, decades to develop the peak of your musical abilities. It sadly comes down the fact that nobody wants to fuck a crusty old man

Go back to the classical age, and most composers would peak in their older age (which would be considered middle aged due to our longer average lifespans of today) and this era lasted for a far greater period of time than the modern music industry did.

Yes I saw your posts where you were able to name like 10 whole bands against the million that ever existed.

It’s not a fallacy. You just don’t want it to be true.

 

[Losfer Words]

Popular music is a young man's game but not music in general. Music in general is just an awesome invisible art. You can make a living in music if you so desire. There are a bunch of levels in the game, I assume like most entertainment/art. You gotta make some unreal sacrifices to sustain a music career in popular music though. I can't tell how many times I've worked for popular bands that basically take a deep breath, walk on stage and lie.

The best and most accurate quote about the actual industry has been around for a while...
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."
Hunter S. Thompson

 

[Lycandroid]

This guy gets it.

Popular music is a young man's game but not music in general. Music in general is just an awesome invisible art. You can make a living in music if you so desire. There are a bunch of levels in the game, I assume like most entertainment/art. You gotta make some unreal sacrifices to sustain a music career in popular music though. I can't tell how many times I've worked for popular bands that basically take a deep breath, walk on stage and lie.

The best and most accurate quote about the actual industry has been around for a while...
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."
Hunter S. Thompson

Yes I saw your posts where you were able to name like 10 whole bands against the million that ever existed.

It’s not a fallacy. You just don’t want it to be true.

One reason why I care about this topic is that I hear from people all the time who are hesitant about playing music but think they can't because they are too old. I find that very sad. I can go all day naming bands, that's not an issue. I only listed some of my personal favorites that are also well known bands. I could spend hours listening bands and to you guys with your lack of knowledge I might as well be speaking french, I predict that response would be "Who?" Lets assume you are right, what is the reason why people reach a certain age and then their musical abilities suddenly disappear ?

 

[Losfer Words]

This guy gets it.



One reason why I care about this topic is that I hear from people all the time who are hesitant about playing music but think they can't because they are too old. I find that very sad. I can go all day naming bands, that's not an issue. I only listed some of my personal favorites that are also well known bands. I could spend hours listening bands and to you guys with your lack of knowledge I might as well be speaking french, I predict that response would be "Who?" Lets assume you are right, what is the reason why people reach a certain age and then their musical abilities suddenly disappear ?

Lol at lack of knowledge. I've been a musician and audio engineer my whole life and still am and I'm approaching 50. I just finished tracking an album for a sweet punk band duo of old dudes.

 

[Lycandroid]

Lol at lack of knowledge. I've been a musician and audio engineer my whole life and still am and I'm approaching 50. I just finished tracking an album for a sweet punk band duo of old dudes.

Me too ! I wasn't talking about you seems like you know what is going on. I bet you could compile a good list for this argument as well.

As an audio engineer what is your opinion on guitar amp sims as opposed to setting up a mic when it comes to distortion ? I always hear from guys who know what they doing that amp sims are the way to go these days, but I just can't get anything I would be truly happy with. Too much of the same thing I hear everywhere else.

 

[Losfer Words]

Me too ! I wasn't talking about you seems like you know what is going on. I bet you could compile a good list for this argument as well.

As an audio engineer what is your opinion on guitar amp sims as opposed to setting up a mic when it comes to distortion ? I always hear from guys who know what they doing that amp sims are the way to go these days, but I just can't get anything I would be truly happy with. Too much of the same thing I hear everywhere else.

Real amp if I had a choice. Amp sims have come a long way though. On a recording, noone can tell the difference except other players.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

I'm not saying record companies should promote music that they know will lose money, I am saying they should go back to the system of the 50's 60's and 70's where bands pushing the envelope would get funded. Under the modern system so many of the classic bands we all love would not even exist. There is a reason why so many people gravitate to music made decades before they were even born. This was not the case back then. Today at the highest levels many artists are promoted as a brand, not a musical identity that comes second and that causes so many problems. That would be unthinkable back in the day.

I said in my last post that there are more great records made today than ever before so I don't know why you are bringing up the youtube, patreon funding argument. Yes it is cheaper to record now, but that also means way more competition, getting funding is nice, but unless you are already established at a certain level you aren't getting shit. People don't crowd fund on potential projects like record companies used to, although similar it's not exactly the same thing. It's like comparing charity to investment.

Never said I was the arbiter of what music is, but artificially constricting what music is and can be to only fit inside one box and only that box is anti musical. I am making the argument against radio music being the only form of music, not arguing for that idea. I don't understand how you came up with that based on anything I said.

When was the last time you sat down and listened to an entire record from to back while doing nothing else ? I would assume never, it absolutely does take a certain kind of person to do that, it's not looking down my nose at people to say that. I said it was a dying breed because it used to be quite common and is now almost unheard of. It has nothing to do with some kind of superiority complex you are trying to project onto me. I have spent more than half my life in the industry in one way or another, tech jobs, being in a band, promoting shows, recording bands. I think I have more insight into how the industry that I worked in operates and has negative effects on the art itself as I see it every day of my life as opposed to someone whose only connection is being a fan or consumer. Music is subjective, but the fact that the system is totally flawed is not.

Dude lots of people still listen to albums front to back. I've listened to thousands.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

This guy gets it.



One reason why I care about this topic is that I hear from people all the time who are hesitant about playing music but think they can't because they are too old. I find that very sad. I can go all day naming bands, that's not an issue. I only listed some of my personal favorites that are also well known bands. I could spend hours listening bands and to you guys with your lack of knowledge I might as well be speaking french, I predict that response would be "Who?" Lets assume you are right, what is the reason why people reach a certain age and then their musical abilities suddenly disappear ?

I don't think the ability to play suddenly disappears and I'm not sure the ability to be creative disappears but I think the evidence suggests that musical creativity certainly seems to dissipate with age.

It doesn't seem to be the case in writing, so it's strange that it seems to be the case in music. If there were more examples than I can think of of artists releasing their best work when they're older then it would be cool but I just can't think of many.

 

[Lycandroid]

I don't think the ability to play suddenly disappears and I'm not sure the ability to be creative disappears but I think the evidence suggests that musical creativity certainly seems to dissipate with age.

It doesn't seem to be the case in writing, so it's strange that it seems to be the case in music. If there were more examples than I can think of of artists releasing their best work when they're older then it would be cool but I just can't think of many.

It is weird to think about, when writing you have to put much more thought into things, where with music you can just pick up the instrument and have it pour out of you as if it came from somewhere else. I'm not well versed in writing by any means but is that really a thing ? Sitting down and just having it pour out ? Seems to me good writing is fairly structured. Then you have the collaboration factor, many artists aren't all that much without the right guys to feed off and write with.

 

[Bob Gray]

Eh, I get why they had to do it. At the time you had to be vaccinated ti travel. If a member of a touring band isn't vaccinated, regardless of anyone's beliefs, you couldnt travel and I assume there were probably rules with the venues at the time.

I've been around the punk scene my entire life. My older brother was an old school punk rocker that knew a lot of people and had a band for awhile. The scene has always been full of posturing, gate-keeping hypocrites that care about their image more than any kind of philosophical application of core beliefs. It became a manufactured scene pretty quickly and the whole "real punk-rock" was usually little more than people attempting to fit into whatever trend they thought would give them the most "cred".

 

[Hellowhosthat]

It is weird to think about, when writing you have to put much more thought into things, where with music you can just pick up the instrument and have it pour out of you as if it came from somewhere else. I'm not well versed in writing by any means but is that really a thing ? Sitting down and just having it pour out ? Seems to me good writing is fairly structured. Then you have the collaboration factor, many artists aren't all that much without the right guys to feed off and write with.

I think with writing it's more the ideas pour out and then they have to go back and refine them later

 

[Losfer Words]

I don't think the ability to play suddenly disappears and I'm not sure the ability to be creative disappears but I think the evidence suggests that musical creativity certainly seems to dissipate with age.

It doesn't seem to be the case in writing, so it's strange that it seems to be the case in music. If there were more examples than I can think of of artists releasing their best work when they're older then it would be cool but I just can't think of many.

What you're referring to are most likely bands/artists that became lucrative for the industry and got caught in having to remain lucrative. There are many levels to the music game and most musicians (especially prior to the Internet) took time to get lucrative. There is also the subjective nature of music, what I consider amazing you might find dumb. There is also the difference between writing a song and playing an instrument. Beyond the physical aspect of playing an instrument most musicians get better with age.

Gary Moore got better and better at guitar until he died. Thin Lizzy is one of favorite bands and where most people know him from but he got better as he aged.

Iron maiden's live show got better as they aged. The albums didn't but their musicianship sure did.

Leonard Cohen was still writing the best lyrics known to man up to his death and I don't like his music.

Mark lanegan never fell off.

Outkast never fell off.

Many bands have peaks right in the middle or end of the band's career. And bands are an entity that is incomparable to the individuals within them. Pink Floyd had bunches of albums prior to the golden stretch of dark side through the wall. Fugazi never fell off. Built to spill still puts on a wicked show if like stoner guitar rock.

Popular music is no doubt a young man's game but music in general is a lifelong pursuit. To tie a bow on this bitch ass post of mine, evidence suggest that musical creativity doesn't fall off, the zeitgeist changes.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

What you're referring to are most likely bands/artists that became lucrative for the industry and got caught in having to remain lucrative. There are many levels to the music game and most musicians (especially prior to the Internet) took time to get lucrative. There is also the subjective nature of music, what I consider amazing you might find dumb. There is also the difference between writing a song and playing an instrument. Beyond the physical aspect of playing an instrument most musicians get better with age.

Gary Moore got better and better at guitar until he died. Thin Lizzy is one of favorite bands and where most people know him from but he got better as he aged.

Iron maiden's live show got better as they aged. The albums didn't but their musicianship sure did.

Leonard Cohen was still writing the best lyrics known to man up to his death and I don't like his music.

Mark lanegan never fell off.

Outkast never fell off.

Many bands have peaks right in the middle or end of the band's career. And bands are an entity that is incomparable to the individuals within them. Pink Floyd had bunches of albums prior to the golden stretch of dark side through the wall. Fugazi never fell off. Built to spill still puts on a wicked show if like stoner guitar rock.

Popular music is no doubt a young man's game but music in general is a lifelong pursuit. To tie a bow on this bitch ass post of mine, evidence suggest that musical creativity doesn't fall off, the zeitgeist changes.

I think you're right in terms of live shows. That's refining something with years of feedback from fans about what versions and presentation got good and bad reactions, so there's an element of trial and error to it.

In terms of new releases even with more underground musicians I'm not seeing it as a trend although there are of course exceptions to every rule.

Outkast weren't old when they split were they? I would say Stankonia was probably them wrapping up as a group as SB/LB was more two solo albums released as one.

 

[Losfer Words]

I think you're right in terms of live shows. That's refining something with years of feedback from fans about what versions and presentation got good and bad reactions, so there's an element of trial and error to it.

In terms of new releases even with more underground musicians I'm not seeing it as a trend although there are of course exceptions to every rule.

Outkast weren't old when they split were they? I would say Stankonia was probably them wrapping up as a group as SB/LB was more two solo albums released as one.

I can't really speak to new releases because the internet ruined the industry and the album. I know great music is still being put out but the value of an album is gone and so is the relationship between the general public and an album. Kudos to underground music though, the underground will never die.

Outkast might not have been old but they weren't young either and I bet Big Boi can still rap circles around 99% of the world. Being in a band is like a marriage between multiple people, it destined to fail eventually but the ones who keeps playing for the love of it almost always get better until age diminishes physical ability.

 

[Blayt7hh]

This guy gets it.



One reason why I care about this topic is that I hear from people all the time who are hesitant about playing music but think they can't because they are too old. I find that very sad. I can go all day naming bands, that's not an issue. I only listed some of my personal favorites that are also well known bands. I could spend hours listening bands and to you guys with your lack of knowledge I might as well be speaking french, I predict that response would be "Who?" Lets assume you are right, what is the reason why people reach a certain age and then their musical abilities suddenly disappear ?

You’re talking about different things. If an old person wants to learn music that doesn’t mean they can’t learn it, become good and have fun. If they come to you and say “I want to become a star” then yeah those years are behind them. Just like when a man in his 40s decides to pick up boxing.

To the last question, their technical ability isn’t what they lose. It’s something else. And no it isn’t their “fuck ability”. Good music will still transcend that

 

[Lycandroid]

You’re talking about different things. If an old person wants to learn music that doesn’t mean they can’t learn it, become good and have fun. If they come to you and say “I want to become a star” then yeah those years are behind them. Just like when a man in his 40s decides to pick up boxing.

To the last question, their technical ability isn’t what they lose. It’s something else. And no it isn’t their “fuck ability”. Good music will still transcend that

Boxing is a meritocracy based on athletic ability and physical skills which do diminish with age.. Music isn't unless your only into Yngwie Malmsteen shredding technical death metal... stuff entirely based around technical ability. it's not really a fair comparison. What is it exactly that diminishes with age with a musician ? Some unquantifiable factor that nobody describe ? shouldn't that indicate to you that you have been scammed by a skewed music industry ?

 

[RoastBeast]

Music was better when ugly people were making it and getting promoted.

 

[HereticBD]

Boxing is a meritocracy based on athletic ability and physical skills which do diminish with age.. Music isn't unless your only into Yngwie Malmsteen shredding technical death metal... stuff entirely based around technical ability. it's not really a fair comparison. What is it exactly that diminishes with age with a musician ? Some unquantifiable factor that nobody describe ?

It's not the rule, but people also tend to peak creatively in the early stages of their careers. Most notable bands/directors/comedians, etc usually have a window of two or three great albums/movies/specials, and a bunch of forgettable shit if they keep pumping shit out after that. Like I said, it's not the rule, but it is fairly common for whatever reason. Take Pearl Jam for instance. I don't think anybody is putting their last 900 forgettable albums up against their first four or five. A single example, I know, but it seems to track with most artists.

The industry definitely can put shackles on artists, but even when they're not shackled too much, they don't tend to stay on top and remain in peak creative form for a variety of reasons. For instance, I think being young and single with no cares in the world can fuel creativity. When artists settle down, they tend to lose some creative juices.

 

[Losfer Words]

It's not the rule, but people also tend to peak creatively in the early stages of their careers. Most notable bands/directors/comedians, etc usually have a window of two or three great albums/movies/specials, and a bunch of forgettable shit if they keep pumping shit out after that. Like I said, it's not the rule, but it is fairly common for whatever reason. Take Pearl Jam for instance. I don't think anybody is putting their last 900 forgettable albums up against their first four or five. A single example, I know, but it seems to track with most artists.

The industry definitely can put shackles on artists, but even when they're not shackled too much, they don't tend to stay on top and remain in peak creative form for a variety of reasons. For instance, I think being young and single with no cares in the world can fuel creativity. When artists settle down, they tend to lose some creative juices.

I can't seem to stay out of this thread, like a sore tooth you can't stop touching. The window your talking about also involves things and people like the producer, studio and engineer and those things can turn a good idea into a mega seller and sometimes bands can't get access to those things again. A producer can completely change a song or an album in ways the band couldn't or wouldn't. But an audience wouldn't know or care unless they wanted to. Producers and engineers don't have windows of peak performance, they either turn things to gold or not and bands go along for the ride. An engineer like Andy Wallace has mixed a grip of groundbreaking records from run DMC to slayer to Nirvana to rage against the machine, not sure if those albums are held in such high esteem without him and he wasn't in any of the band's and looks like your friends dad. It goes the other way too a band could make an exceptional album only to have a producer or engineer ruin it and the industry will move on to the next band.

 

[kflo]

I don't think the ability to play suddenly disappears and I'm not sure the ability to be creative disappears but I think the evidence suggests that musical creativity certainly seems to dissipate with age.

It doesn't seem to be the case in writing, so it's strange that it seems to be the case in music. If there were more examples than I can think of of artists releasing their best work when they're older then it would be cool but I just can't think of many.

I think older artists have a smaller audience that their experiences and situations resonate with compared to younger artists. I can get nostalgic listening to a younger artist talk about young people shit but a younger person cares fuckall about being a parent, caring for parents, aging, money issues, etc.

And let’s face it, struggling artists sound more authentic than well off artists. You can’t write born to run in your 50s.