Social Punk rock band kicks out drummer because of refusal to take vaccine

[HereticBD]

Too many people in both industries in it more for the revenue potential than the love of the craft, unfortunately.

Sure, but I think that if you want your vision for whatever to be seen by as many people as possible, you have to make concessions as an artist. There are very, VERY few artists who get to tell the industry to march to the tune of their drum.

There's a clear stagnancy and lull in creativity going on in both industries that I perceive.

I think that has more to do with politics these days. It was hard enough before to get your unfiltered vision out there. Now you have to run it through a million PR firms that search for "problematic" content, and no matter how good you are, millions of people are constantly looking to cancel you for stepping out of line ever so slightly, like with a tweet or whatever. Walls are certainly closing in.

Plateaus in creativity are a hard thing for capitalism to deal with and I think you're seeing it now.

It's 50/50, I'd say. Sometimes it's great, if the artists are just feeding the beast. I think the thing today, though, is that the ceiling has gotten smaller...mostly due to politics. Less and less people are willing to go against the machine. Before, they'd kind of have to wrangle the artists in to due their bidding. Now the artists are going "Whatever you say, money man!"

There is a sever lack of balls in artistic industries today.

Combine a plateau in creativity with an opening of media so wide anybody can market themselves anywhere in the world at any moment in time and you have a recipe for disaster as far as I can tell.

When they figure out how to corporatize social media(FAR more than it is now), it will truly be the end.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Music is supposed to be self expression, are you really expressing anything meaningful when you are doing the same thing for the 500th time ? How many times can you make the same point over and over and it still have an impact ?

They are absolutely forced. If you don't fit the formula you lose funding, you lose fans you lose contracts, you lose the ability to make a living unless you pander to the whims of people who want to hear nothing more than a 3 minute I V IV.

For major musicians making a living isn't really a problem though. If the Rolling Stones decided they wanted to make an avant garde album rather than play the old hits it's not going to make a difference to Mick Jagger's quality of life.

 

[Stump]

I saw offspring at a concert like 17 years ago and I thought they looked a bit ridiculous on stage, too old to be up there flying this rebelious, dyed hair youth flag as old men.

They look even more ridiculous now.

That said, vaccines were an important aspect of covid management, though it sucks they strong armed this guy and he had a legit reason not to vax. The kind of legit reason that means that its even more important for others who can, to get vaccinated.

 

[Lycandroid]

For major musicians making a living isn't really a problem though. If the Rolling Stones decided they wanted to make an avant garde album rather than play the old hits it's not going to make a difference to Mick Jagger's quality of life.

it depends what your definition of major musician is. There are plenty of bands that are just as popular as they were 20 30 years ago when they were selling records and getting played on mtv but now have to have side jobs or are operating at overall loss.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

it depends what your definition of major musician is. There are plenty of bands that are just as popular as they were 20 30 years ago when they were selling records and getting played on mtv but now have to have side jobs or are operating at overall loss.

My point is that there are hundreds of musicians who could have just decided to do what the fuck they wanted when they were older that didn't.

 

[Lycandroid]

My point is that there are hundreds of musicians who could have just decided to do what the fuck they wanted when they were older that didn't.

well the Rolling Stones aren't exactly a great example for that argument. Especially when you consider what they have done outside of the band.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

well the Rolling Stones aren't exactly a great example for that argument. Especially when you consider what they have done outside of the band.

Other than Scott Walker and Bowie (who was like that when he was young anyway), who's getting older and making radically different music that risks alienating their fanbase?

 

[Lycandroid]

Other than Scott Walker and Bowie (who was like that when he was young anyway), who's getting older and making radically different music that risks alienating their fanbase?

Plenty but going with ones that I enjoy particularly

Gary Moore
Miles Davis
Joni Mitchel
Ulver
Devin Townsend
Beck
Corrosion of Conformity
Gary Numan
Darius Rucker
Darkthrone
George Benson
John Mayer
Steven Wilson/Porcupine Tree
Dallas Green
Depeche Mode
Opeth

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Plenty but going with ones that I enjoy particularly

Gary Moore
Miles Davis
Joni Mitchel
Ulver
Devin Townsend
Beck
Corrosion of Conformity
Gary Numan
Darius Rucker
Darkthrone
George Benson
John Mayer
Steven Wilson/Porcupine Tree
Dallas Green
Depeche Mode
Opeth

Hmm, idk about Beck, he's been doing the same album rotation he's always done.

Ulver sure, but again moved away from black metal when they were still pretty young.

Depeche Mode I'm not sure I agree with. Don't really agree with Opeth either.

Gary Numan yes but his nu-metal phrase was embarrassing although it definitely fits the mould of alienating your fans because it certainly alienated me.

Miles sure, I think in jazz people play more freely anyway though.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

@Lycandroid I guess a different question would be which artists released their best album after they were 40?

I can only think of Scott Walker (52 when he made Tilt)
Miles Davis (late 40s when he did Dark Magus I think)
Charles Mingus (41 when he did black saint and the sinner lady)
Duke Ellington (68 when he did Far East suite)

Hmm, seems much more prevalent in jazz.

 

[Losfer Words]

I make my money in the music industry, recording, live sound and playing. When things reopened it was all kinds of strange. In order to work a live show (from bar tending to security to production) you 100% had to be vaxed and you had to have a vax card. Every venue had a slightly different way of dealing with it, the venues i worked the most had everyone's card on file, in a binder and tour managers could request to see (but not have a copy) of everyone's card upon arrival. Also it was 100% on the band's side how things were dealt with. Bands had the power to require or not require all things covid related of the staff of the venue and audience they were playing. Some bands required all employees and audience to be masked at all times, some didn't, some wanted no contact with staff and would stay on the bus until show time. Over time the venues around me started to assert their rights more and more and then eventually covid requests just kinda stopped.

The most extreme cases were bands that were doing support for much larger tours. Those bands often play smaller venues in between their support shows. So a band thats opening for Metallica or a similar large act will headline their own shows on off nights. Those shows, the policy was dictated by the management of the larger tours they were supporting and were basically 100% no contact with staff, empty house during soundchecks and all that jazz. It was strange.

 

[Evbo]

What about Aerosmith? Steve Tyler was about 25 when Dream On came out and 50 when Jaded/Don't Want to Miss a Thing were big.

I believe country artist George Strait had 30 years in between his first and last #1 hits. Although country singers kind of don't count because they don't normally write all their own stuff.

Seems like most musicians have about a 10 year period where they can be in their prime. Some shorter, some a little longer. Most bands that hang on for too long just wind up making really bland and boring music in their older years. I'm not sure if they do it for themselves because it's just what they've always done and they enjoy it or if they really think that they're going to recapture the magic they once had? They wind up being equivalent to Rick Flair trying to wrestle with his flabby old man body in his 70s. Not a good look.

Cryin' is the best Aerosmith tune IMO, released 1993. That being said I sang Dont Wanna Miss A Thing at a kareoke night and my voice was absolutely fucked for the rest of the night/following morning, Tylers vocal work is pretty impressive in itself

 

[Thrawn33]

Other than Scott Walker and Bowie (who was like that when he was young anyway), who's getting older and making radically different music that risks alienating their fanbase?

Johnny Cash covering NIN, Depeche Mode, and Soundgarden at his age was not expected...

Further cementing him as a fan of damn near all genres.

 

[Gutter Chris]

Cryin' is the best Aerosmith tune IMO, released 1993. That being said I sang Dont Wanna Miss A Thing at a kareoke night and my voice was absolutely fucked for the rest of the night/following morning, Tylers vocal work is pretty impressive in itself

Do hootie metallica or Alice in chains next time. Pretty easy to nail , will still impress your buds and won't fry your vocal chords.

 

[Andy Capp]

I forgot all about this thread lol.

It's the exact same reason cinema has faltered.

Yeah, but is anyone claiming the actors in them are forced into it?

He's suggesting studios should spend a bunch of money promoting stuff they think will lose them money. And then what will the artists do when those studios go out of business?

Do I agree with their choices? Fuck no, but am I paying the studios? Also, fuck no. Their promotional budget is not coming out of my pocket, is it?

Too many people in both industries in it more for the revenue potential than the love of the craft, unfortunately.

There's a clear stagnancy and lull in creativity going on in both industries that I perceive. Plateaus in creativity are a hard thing for capitalism to deal with and I think you're seeing it now.

Combine a plateau in creativity with an opening of media so wide anybody can market themselves anywhere in the world at any moment in time and you have a recipe for disaster as far as I can tell.

I think the cream will rise to the top. There's a reason the terms mainstream, pop, and sellout exist already. Artists will find a way.

It's only music if the capitalists deem it so is a terrible anti musical stance. I haven't proved your point, you have missed the point in this matter your entire life as do most people, you clearly have no authority to speak on this topic.

Back to the topic at hand, The Offspring could have handled this better, what kind of loser puts politics above a friend of over ten years ? You gotta keep those seperated.


It's not just streaming to blame for this, we have so many distractions in our lives to most people it would seem weird to sit there and do nothing but listen to an album front to back. It takes a certain kind of person to do that and appreciate that kind of experience, we are a dying breed.

lol see this is why I can't take you seriously.
"It's only music if the capitalists deem it so..."

Who said that? What I said, and what you keep pretending I didn't say, is that music may not get promoted if the people paying for promotion don't think it will make money. That doesn't mean it's not music, you silly tool. The fucking music still exists. Artists have more ways than ever to get their music out to the public without the need for a middleman, in fact. You'd think Youtube and Patreon and GoFundMe and personal web pages and other forms of self-publishing didn't exist to listen to you.

Oh right, you're the arbiter of what music is and it only counts as music if it's on the radio or some stupid shit. So if they're not getting paid, artists suddenly can't make real music anymore--because they can't find self-expression without new songs they write but are no longer music for some reason. I forgot. They're forced to perform in bumfuck nowhere and do all their favorite songs and that's different from every fucking band since forever how, exactly?

Incidentally, only complete fucktards made COVID-19 and measures against it a political matter. The story that prompted the OP is a single anecdote, which is not worth a fuck. If the band member's doctor said he shouldn't get vaccinated the band should have accepted that and if he didn't have a legit medical excuse they had the right to ask him to fish or cut bait. Whichever of these is true ends the discussion as far as I am concerned. It means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Listen to this arrogant bullshit.
"It takes a certain kind of person to do that and appreciate that kind of experience, we are a dying breed." I.e. you normies don't appreciate REAL music like I do.

Don't you go cross-eyed looking down your nose like that?

 

[Lycandroid]

I forgot all about this thread lol.

Yeah, but is anyone claiming the actors in them are forced into it?

He's suggesting studios should spend a bunch of money promoting stuff they think will lose them money. And then what will the artists do when those studios go out of business?

Do I agree with their choices? Fuck no, but am I paying the studios? Also, fuck no. Their promotional budget is not coming out of my pocket, is it?

I think the cream will rise to the top. There's a reason the terms mainstream, pop, and sellout exist already. Artists will find a way.


lol see this is why I can't take you seriously.
"It's only music if the capitalists deem it so..."

Who said that? What I said, and what you keep pretending I didn't say, is that music may not get promoted if the people paying for promotion don't think it will make money. That doesn't mean it's not music, you silly tool. The fucking music still exists. Artists have more ways than ever to get their music out to the public without the need for a middleman, in fact. You'd think Youtube and Patreon and GoFundMe and personal web pages and other forms of self-publishing didn't exist to listen to you.

Oh right, you're the arbiter of what music is and it only counts as music if it's on the radio or some stupid shit. So if they're not getting paid, artists suddenly can't make real music anymore--because they can't find self-expression without new songs they write but are no longer music for some reason. I forgot. They're forced to perform in bumfuck nowhere and do all their favorite songs and that's different from every fucking band since forever how, exactly?

Incidentally, only complete fucktards made COVID-19 and measures against it a political matter. The story that prompted the OP is a single anecdote, which is not worth a fuck. If the band member's doctor said he shouldn't get vaccinated the band should have accepted that and if he didn't have a legit medical excuse they had the right to ask him to fish or cut bait. Whichever of these is true ends the discussion as far as I am concerned. It means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Listen to this arrogant bullshit.
"It takes a certain kind of person to do that and appreciate that kind of experience, we are a dying breed." I.e. you normies don't appreciate REAL music like I do.

Don't you go cross-eyed looking down your nose like that?

I'm not saying record companies should promote music that they know will lose money, I am saying they should go back to the system of the 50's 60's and 70's where bands pushing the envelope would get funded. Under the modern system so many of the classic bands we all love would not even exist. There is a reason why so many people gravitate to music made decades before they were even born. This was not the case back then. Today at the highest levels many artists are promoted as a brand, not a musical identity that comes second and that causes so many problems. That would be unthinkable back in the day.

I said in my last post that there are more great records made today than ever before so I don't know why you are bringing up the youtube, patreon funding argument. Yes it is cheaper to record now, but that also means way more competition, getting funding is nice, but unless you are already established at a certain level you aren't getting shit. People don't crowd fund on potential projects like record companies used to, although similar it's not exactly the same thing. It's like comparing charity to investment.

Never said I was the arbiter of what music is, but artificially constricting what music is and can be to only fit inside one box and only that box is anti musical. I am making the argument against radio music being the only form of music, not arguing for that idea. I don't understand how you came up with that based on anything I said.

When was the last time you sat down and listened to an entire record from to back while doing nothing else ? I would assume never, it absolutely does take a certain kind of person to do that, it's not looking down my nose at people to say that. I said it was a dying breed because it used to be quite common and is now almost unheard of. It has nothing to do with some kind of superiority complex you are trying to project onto me. I have spent more than half my life in the industry in one way or another, tech jobs, being in a band, promoting shows, recording bands. I think I have more insight into how the industry that I worked in operates and has negative effects on the art itself as I see it every day of my life as opposed to someone whose only connection is being a fan or consumer. Music is subjective, but the fact that the system is totally flawed is not.

 

[Andy Capp]

I'm not saying record companies should promote music that they know will lose money, I am saying they should go back to the system of the 50's 60's and 70's where bands pushing the envelope would get funded. Under the modern system so many of the classic bands we all love would not even exist. There is a reason why so many people gravitate to music made decades before they were even born. This was not the case back then. Today at the highest levels many artists are promoted as a brand, not a musical identity that comes second and that causes so many problems. That would be unthinkable back in the day.

I said in my last post that there are more great records made today than ever before so I don't know why you are bringing up the youtube, patreon funding argument. Yes it is cheaper to record now, but that also means way more competition, getting funding is nice, but unless you are already established at a certain level you aren't getting shit. People don't crowd fund on potential projects like record companies used to, although similar it's not exactly the same thing. It's like comparing charity to investment.

Never said I was the arbiter of what music is, but artificially constricting what music is and can be to only fit inside one box and only that box is anti musical. I am making the argument against radio music being the only form of music, not arguing for that idea. I don't understand how you came up with that based on anything I said.

When was the last time you sat down and listened to an entire record from to back while doing nothing else ? I would assume never, it absolutely does take a certain kind of person to do that, it's not looking down my nose at people to say that. I said it was a dying breed because it used to be quite common and is now almost unheard of. It has nothing to do with some kind of superiority complex you are trying to project onto me. I have spent more than half my life in the industry in one way or another, tech jobs, being in a band, promoting shows, recording bands. I think I have more insight into how the industry that I worked in operates and has negative effects on the art itself as I see it every day of my life as opposed to someone whose only connection is being a fan or consumer. Music is subjective, but the fact that the system is totally flawed is not.

Your imagination is better than your reading comprehension. You're good at making assumptions and contradicting yourself though, I'll give you that.

 

[Blayt7hh]

Johnny Cash covering NIN, Depeche Mode, and Soundgarden at his age was not expected...

Further cementing him as a fan of damn near all genres.

Would you say he got better or just didn’t drop off like most artists do?

I would say that music is largely a young man’s game. I’m sure there are some outliers, but it’s really kind of obvious that most artists fall off as they get older.

 

[Lycandroid]

Your imagination is better than your reading comprehension. You're good at making assumptions and contradicting yourself though, I'll give you that.

and what contradictions did I make ? I do have to use google translate sometimes but I think my english is pretty good actually, what point did you make that I failed to understand ?

 

[Lycandroid]

Would you say he got better or just didn’t drop off like most artists do?

I would say that music is largely a young man’s game. I’m sure there are some outliers, but it’s really kind of obvious that most artists fall off as they get older.

absolutely not true, this is just a fallacy due to marketing. Young artists are just easier to market, it can take years, decades to develop the peak of your musical abilities. It sadly comes down the fact that nobody wants to fuck a crusty old man

Go back to the classical age, and most composers would peak in their older age (which would be considered middle aged due to our longer average lifespans of today) and this era lasted for a far greater period of time than the modern music industry did.