Pulling the head during a triangle choke in Judo

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by judofarmerbob, Jun 4, 2008.

  1. judofarmerbob

    judofarmerbob Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2008
    Messages:
    296
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    IIII OOOO WAAAAA
    So, for the past three years at Iowa State I've always used the head pull in my triangle chokes. For some reason, certain people have tried telling me I can't do this. I talked it over with my boss, who's a referee (and a good one, too, none of this fucking calling wazari for kokas shit, he's awesome) and he said that since it's a supported choke, it shouldn't be illegal. There's nothing in the rules expressly prohibiting it, either.

    Now, I know that you really don't even need to bother with the head if you've got your hips shifted in the right position. What's even more interesting is that lately, I've been rolling with some of the bigger (read: thicker) guys in my club, and even though I'm 6'4" I still can't quite get a good lock with my legs. What I've resorted to doing is reaching up and squeezing my knees together and pulling them to my chest.

    Oddly enough, the reviews are in, and people tend to think that that works even BETTER than just the head pull. Where pulling on the head created more downward pressure on the neck, closing off the windpipe, apparently squeeze-and-pull does a really good job of all-around constriction. I've been using this method for the last few weeks and find that I'm getting people tapping instantaneously, which is neat.

    Anyway, does anyone know if it's illegal to grab the head? It's still a good go-to if I can't quite get to my knees, but like I said, I don't know why it would be illegal? I mean, if it were illegal to push on the head, then you wouldn't/shouldn't be able to do sleeper chokes either.

    Then again, I've had people try and tell me flying armbars are illegal in Judo. Come to think of it...they're the same people who tell me I can't pull the head down.

    I think they're just whiny.
     
  2. YeahBee

    YeahBee Samdog Original Nine

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2006
    Messages:
    24,942
    Likes Received:
    12
    Location:
    Land of the Ice and Snow
    touching the face is what peole have told me

    Can't apply the acctual sub while in the air/standing, have to get them down first

    like I don't think you could do a Saku-esque Kimura roll, get the kimura, then trip then apply okey
     
  3. codemonkey76

    codemonkey76 Black Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2006
    Messages:
    5,312
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Brisbane, Australia
    for all BJJ comps i have entered, there was a rule expressly forbidding it "No Triangle pulling the head"
     
  4. FLMikeATT

    FLMikeATT Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2006
    Messages:
    1,673
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Port St. Lucie, FL
    that's a pretty lame rule.
     
  5. judogido

    judogido Aussie!, Aussie!, Aussie! ...

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,741
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Down Under
    As I understand it, it is not illegal.

    The problem is referee inconsistency due to ignorance. Some will allow it, others will not.

    They see it as a neck crank.

    You might reach up and grab your own leg and apply extra pressure by using your leg/forearm - they seem more comfortable with this.

    Flying armbars are not illegal, however it can fall under the rule of "head-diving" if not performed correctly - which applies to the attacker as well as the opponent.

    <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ih4LJ3e4Y2g&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ih4LJ3e4Y2g&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

    <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ana9veD9MrY&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ana9veD9MrY&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
     
  6. codemonkey76

    codemonkey76 Black Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2006
    Messages:
    5,312
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Brisbane, Australia
    yeah it's pretty lame, but if you get the angle right, wrapping your legs and squeezing does just as good of a job
     
  7. zaoh

    zaoh Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    May 7, 2008
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Behind you
    In the past it was legal, but now, due to the changing of the rules, it is considered illegal.
     
  8. FWTG

    FWTG Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2008
    Messages:
    635
    Likes Received:
    1
    In BJJ comps???

    Anyone else seen this forbidden in BJJ comps? Seems weird considering the standard triangle is almost always taught with a head pull as part of the finish.
     
  9. Volund

    Volund Mighty Healthy

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    7,522
    Likes Received:
    386
    Location:
    USA
    I went a few months to a very respectable judo gym awhile ago and had problems with the triangle. I read on the board (before I went, like a noob I know) that it was a good idea to pull the head down if you arn't sinking the choke. It worked, but my instructors told me that it was illegal in competition.
     
  10. judogido

    judogido Aussie!, Aussie!, Aussie! ...

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,741
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Down Under
    It is not illegal in judo.

    The only applicable rules that apply are the ones where you:
    1. May not touch the face
    2. May not apply a move pressuring the spine

    There is no rule preventing placing pressure on the back of the head with any bodypart - otherwise there'd be a host of other techs that are "illegal".

    However - something like the "can-opener" WOULD be illegal.

    THAT'S where the issue lies.

    Some judoka interpret pulling on the back of the head as as a neck crank - which is illegal - although I guess on some angles it could be a crank.

    The "trick" is to tighten the triangle differently.

    Same thing with the guillotine - you can choke ... but not crank - the thing is to make it obvious you're not cranking.

    Or the kimura - you can apply pressure to the elbow but not the shoulder - so you have to make it more obvious you're pressuring the elbow (even if they tap because of the shoulder as long as it LOOKS like the elbow is the main target of the submission then the ref cannot call it as illegal on the shoulder).

    All about "playing the game".
     
  11. georgejjr

    georgejjr Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2006
    Messages:
    5,857
    Likes Received:
    14
    As judogido says, it depends upon how its done (and the referee). If it looks like a head crank, it'll be called. If it looks like you're just sinking the head into the triangle it won't be (if you have a good referee).

    In higher level competitions you're more likely to get away with it, people tend to the side of caution with neck manipulation at local tournaments. Same thing for the guillotine (a variation of hadaka jime) - depends upon how its done. I've never seen it called illegal, but that might just be because the people using it used it as a choke and not a crank.

    The kimura should never be called illegal in judo Any referee that calls the Kimura illegal probably shouldn't be refereeing.
     
  12. Silverblur

    Silverblur Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2007
    Messages:
    2,310
    Likes Received:
    117
    Wait, atacking the shoulder is illegal in Judo? I never knew that.
     
  13. easy tiger

    easy tiger Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2006
    Messages:
    717
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    CA
    I'm with Judogido on this issue. It's just that some refs believe it's a neck crank. Same with the guillotine, etc. I jdon't like the idea, because it's pretty much all in the ref's hands to decide while he doesn't really know whether it is or isn't cranking the neck.
     
  14. IChinaManI

    IChinaManI Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    988
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Halifax, NS
    I think you're doing the teepee almost, when you squeeze and grab under. Though if you're unsure about the head, grab the knee on the leg thats across the back of the neck and pull it to you instead. I find that tighter anyways.
     
  15. judofarmerbob

    judofarmerbob Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2008
    Messages:
    296
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    IIII OOOO WAAAAA
    most refs that haven't competed usually end up sucking and fucking up the rules. it's a bummer how inconsistent people can be. i'm glad they're getting rid of the horrible point system. that should take a lot of the discrepancy out of it.

    it's too bad they don't go back to the old school rules.
     
  16. judogido

    judogido Aussie!, Aussie!, Aussie! ...

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,741
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Down Under
    Yes - no submissions on the shoulder permitted.

    Hence on a kimura you should bring the hand in close to the body and crank the elbow.

    Although there is always secondary pressure on the shoulder, it *should* predominantly then be on the elbow. In the end - no-one can then prove he tapped because of the shoulder or elbow - so the referee cannot call a penalty.
     
  17. judogido

    judogido Aussie!, Aussie!, Aussie! ...

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,741
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Down Under
    Yeah - that's what I do. That way it doesnt look so much like a "neck crank" but you get the same effect.
     
  18. judofarmerbob

    judofarmerbob Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2008
    Messages:
    296
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    IIII OOOO WAAAAA
    i americana like a mofo all the time from side mount and it's definitely still a shoulder lock.

    tap's a tap.
     
  19. georgejjr

    georgejjr Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2006
    Messages:
    5,857
    Likes Received:
    14
    Actually, what I was told in a refereeing seminar (by an IJF ranked referee) was that because the kimura, americana and oomoplata (he actually spoke of variations of ude garami) are done by controlling the elbow joint, they are considered elbow locks even if the actual lock catches the shoulder rather than the elbow. They should, according to him, never be called illegal, and he'd never heard of anyone being penalized for using them in national and international level tournaments. I think if nothing else they're in because of a grandfather clause ... if they were good enough for Kano and Mifune, they're good enough for everyone else :icon_chee

    Certainly you can find on youtube instances of them being applied in olympic judo, and being considered legitimate (ie the result was ippon, not a penalty). This has also been discussed several times on judoinfo.com, and the high ranked individuals such as Hanon, PT_Nippon and Cichoreo_Kano seemed to say the same thing as I heard in the seminar. Basically, they're all legal in judo, you don't have to make them look like they're particularly being applied to the elbow.

    The guillotine and pulling the head on the triangle on the other hand you have to be careful on, because they can be interpreted as neck cranks. The question came up on the seminar, and we were basically told to watch for spinal compression ... ie call it if it looks dangerous to uke's neck.
     
  20. Bubble Boy

    Bubble Boy Black Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    6,973
    Likes Received:
    13
    Exactly. I wouldn't add a thing to this. Stellar Judogido...
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.