Protein depression

Discussion in 'Dieting / Supplement Discussion' started by Vilo Magee, Jan 23, 2006.

  1. Vilo Magee

    Vilo Magee Brown Belt Professional Fighter

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    Protein Linked to Depression
    New antidepressants might result from this discovery, researchers say

    By Steven Reinberg
    HealthDay Reporter




    Researchers have identified a protein that seems to play a key role in fighting depression.

    The protein, called p11, appears to help regulate signaling of the brain chemical serotonin. A target of the antidepressants called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), which include Prozac, serotonin has been linked to depression and anxiety disorders, the study noted.

    "Mice deficient in this protein, called p11, display depression-like behaviors, while those with sufficient amounts behave as if they have been treated with antidepressants," study author Paul Greengard, a Nobel Prize-winning neuroscientist at Rockefeller University in New York City, said in a prepared statement.

    The experiments with mice revealed how p11 works with the serotonin receptor 5-HT1B, which has also been associated with obsessive-compulsive disorder, drug addiction, anxiety and aggression, as well as depression.

    The findings appear in the Jan. 6 issue of Science.

    "P11 can be viewed as a protein that links the pathophysiology of depression with the serotonin system," said lead study author Per Svenningsson, from the department of physiology and pharmacology at the Karolinska Institute, in Stockholm, Sweden.

    Depression is often treated with compounds such as SSRIs, which increase levels of serotonin. "The released serotonin acts on 14 serotonin receptors, some of which mediate therapeutic actions and some of which mediate side effects," he added.

    The researchers studied one specific serotonin receptor, the 5-HT1B receptor, and found that it interacts with p11. The protein is depleted in tissue in so-called "helpless" mice, which exhibit behaviors similar to depressed humans. It's also depleted in the brain tissue of depressed patients, the researchers said.

    "Mice that over-express p11 are hyperactive, and act as if they are on antidepressant medication," Svenningsson said. Conversely, mice that have no p11 "act as they are somewhat depressed and show less responsivity towards antidepressant medications," he added.

    While there's no immediate clinical application for this finding, Svenningsson said "this study emphasizes that 5-HT1B receptor, with its interaction with p11, may be linked to depression."

    "It may turn out that future antidepressants could target this 5-HT receptor, and probably some additional 5-HT receptors, but not necessarily all 5-HT receptors. Hopefully, such antidepressants will have fewer side effects," Svenningsson said.

    One expert agrees that p11 might become a target for antidepressants in the future.

    "Whilst p11 is a potential source of new therapies, unfortunately at the moment we do not know enough about p11 to target it selectively with drugs," said Trevor Sharp, a reader in pharmacology at the University of Oxford, Great Britain, and author of an accompanying perspective article in the journal.

    "However, p11 is functionally linked to a serotonin receptor, and there are a number of drugs in development that act selectively on this receptor, and some of these drugs show antidepressant potential in laboratory models," Sharp said. "We will know in a few years whether these kinds of drugs are better than the antidepressant treatments that we already have."

    More information

    The U.S. National Institute of Mental Health can tell you more about depression.


    SOURCES: Per Svenningsson, Ph.D., department of physiology and pharmacology, Karolinska Institute, Stockholm, Sweden; Trevor Sharp, Ph.D., reader, pharmacology, University of Oxford, Great Britain; Jan. 6, 2006, Science
     
  2. fat_wilhelm

    fat_wilhelm Black Belt

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    Extremely interesting. Mental health is so intriguing to me. You're on a roll today, Vigo.
     
  3. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Vilo wilhelm.

    It's good to see my homie doing his homework so dilligently. But hey man, did you not see the irony of posting an article on mental health when you still have "headcase" in your signature? lol

    Christ I give everybody shit. I oughtta be outlawed.
     
  4. Vilo Magee

    Vilo Magee Brown Belt Professional Fighter

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    LOL
    I thought this article was interesting because alot of Fighters face depression and alot of fighters eat lean proteins so maybe there is a tie in.
     
  5. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Hmm, there could be something to that. I know one of the tactics of cults back in the day used to be protein-depletion. By convincing people to eat nothing but jam and crackers and shit they wouldn't be getting enough aminos for proper brain-function and it would make them succeptable to suggestion. Hence how you convince 300 people that offing themselves is a good idea. So, the converse of that might also hold true, excess protein might surely have an effect on brain-function.

    Plus all kinds of shit happens to your endocrine system as a Pro Athlete. Hormones are constantly pumping and Pro Athletes are notorious for wicked mood-swings even without Anabolics. I know there's days I'd just as soon set everyone I see on fire rather than talk to them. What sucks is most of those days I have to buck-up and go to work and try to be...*cringe* helpful. lol
     
  6. Chad Hamilton

    Chad Hamilton Amateur Fighter

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    I love 5-HTP.
    +
    GABA

    My secret weapon.
     
  7. supersudo

    supersudo Purple Belt

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    hey chad.. have u noticed that GABA dehydrates you?.. first time i took it.. it felt like i woke up with a hangover-like headache... it went away as i took smaller dosage and drank more water.. :D
     
  8. fat_wilhelm

    fat_wilhelm Black Belt

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    Oops... Sorry about the misspelling, Vilo.

    I guess I didn't know that a lot of fighters face depression issues. I wouldn't call myself a fighter, but in a lot of ways, I do train and eat like one.

    Zoloft seems to be my ticket to relief from depression and anxiety, but I'm always looking for findings on how it all fits together. Even on the Zoloft commercial w/ the bouncing balls w/ faces, they say something to the effect of "We're not exactly sure why it works, but it does". The human brain is a real mystery, even for those that spend their lives studying it.
     
  9. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Rescue Remedy by Bach > Zoloft.
     
  10. codysweet02

    codysweet02 Brown Belt

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    What is Rescue Remedy by Bach? Is that a perscription or something you would get at a health store?
     
  11. fat_wilhelm

    fat_wilhelm Black Belt

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    Everyone's different.

    Rescue Remedy is more of a situational aid. I'm not sure it would work as well w/ chronic, sustained depression.
     
  12. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    You can get it at any GNC. Here's the back-story:

    Bach has a whole line of floral products in Canada. The Rescue Remedy was intially brought to America for hypertensious dogs, you know, the little ones that shiver all the time and piss everywhere when a thunderstorm happens? Those little yip yap shits. And it worked well. Homeopathic Vets swear by it. So then people start taking it for the same reason. To battle hypertension and depression. And it works.

    I had a client who was a REAL headcase. This silly bitch was giving herself injections of B-12 all day then couldn't figure out why she couldn't sleep, so she'd pop a couple Xanax at night and became addicted to them. So I gave her the Rescue Remedy and Melatonin at night to sleep. A couple months later she came back and told me she hadn't touched the Xanax. Now anyone who knows me knows I can spot a druggie from a mile away. She had really gotten better.

    I have an Aunt who takes Lexapro. But she runs out of it and forgets to buy more (so she says, with the "depressed" you never know because more than half of them are pathological liars), so I brought her the Rescue Remedy to use when she runs out. Now she only uses that because she doesn't get the side-effects that she got with Lexapro.

    I've seen people get off Prozac with it as well. It's really a solid product and only $10.99. I had a woman last Summer, when Florida got hit by 4 Hurricanes. Her job was that she DENIES Insurance claims, that's it...all day. lol So she said she was getting cussed out by Hurricane victims every day, 8 hours a day, all day long. I recommended the Rescue Remedy, when she came back to get more she said she doesn't even give a shit anymore.

    It's made from flowers, has no side-effects, and IMO is as-effective as Lexapro. Like how Red Yeast Rice is usually just as effective as Lipitor. Some people say they don't like it. But then again they just might be crazy. lol
     
  13. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    It has in my experience. There's no reason it can't be used on a continual basis, and I haven't ever heard of anyone building a tolerance to it. I have plenty clients who use it for maintenance, and like I said my Aunt, and believe me bro, she's bonkers.
     
  14. fat_wilhelm

    fat_wilhelm Black Belt

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    It sounds interesting. I'll check it out.

    However...

    Saying that over half of all depressed people are pathological liars and referring to people as "bonkers" hints at the reason why mental health is the single most neglected topic when it comes to taking care of ourselves and why mental illness is so widely untreated. I respect nearly everything you have to say on these boards; you're very educated on a great deal of issues, but those couple statements, in my opinion, perpetuate the negative stigma associated w/ uncontollable depression, anxiety, etc.

    No one wants to be "crazy" and no one wants to feel like they need help. I struggled w/ the decision to see a doctor for a very long time and was initially ashamed that I had to take medicine and certainly wouldn't have offered that information in the beginning. After reading more and more about how mental health is sort of "kicked aside", however, I became willing to be very open about it. I figure if my friends and family see that someone they perceive as being "normal" needs a little help, they may, in turn, come to grips w/ a condition that they or a loved one may have and not see it as such a helpless situation.
     
  15. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Actually bro, I studied psychology extensively in College, it was my understudy, my minor though I didn't pursue a degree. But there's one thing you'll find about me:

    I do not coddle. Ever. I think coddling people in a way facilitates that they stay isolated, as if handicapped. So I subject all people around me to the same level of asshol-ishness that can be me. (I knew a guy with MD, he was wheelchair bound. He told me his whole family had it and had wheelchairs. I COULDN'T help myself, I asked him if they settled family disputes by playing "bumper chairs". He said no, they race. And that's why he had his chair all sooped up, and it WAS fast as Hell...see, he understood my humor.) But nor do I consciously neglect. I was just keeping the mood light because none of it relates to you directly as a person. Keep in-mind, the people I listed in the above sort of third-hand testimonial, I DID help them. I took the time to listen to their problem, find out what specifically they have problems with, and recommend something that actually works and is cheap as opposed to taking advantage of a lot of the symptoms many of them display when reciting their troubles to me.

    I was making jokes, because sense of humor is important. And I don't subscribe to "uncontrollable" depression or anxiety unless you can show me a CAT-scan or something that biologically implicates non-situation invoked chemical-imbalance. In my studies, things like bonafide schizophrenia, sociopathy, these things are truly uncontrollable. Depression and anxiety can be controlled, but it takes a lot of work. But that's just my opinion, and there's an exception to every theory.

    Don't take my personality too seriously with things like this because I tend to use humor to keep the mood light. I can understand it can be mis-interpreted at-times, but it's never meant to perpetuate any negativity about anything. If someone came in here and bashed you or anyone else for mental instability, I'd be the first person to tell them to shut the fuck up.
     
  16. fat_wilhelm

    fat_wilhelm Black Belt

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    Kabuki -

    Based on reading your posts over the past couple months, I do understand the humor you bring to them and I actually didn't suspect you, in particular, of being cavalier towards the issue. I just know that many other people don't understand that there is something more to the issue of mental health than "crazy" or "not crazy" and so sometimes, things said in humor by someone who is educated on the matter may validate the misunderstandings of others who may not have taken the time to delve into the particulars.

    As far as the issue of uncontrollable depression, I respectfully disagree with you. There have been numerous studies, where through post mortem brain analysis, people who have committed suicide have shown much lower levels of seratonin than other, mentally healthy people. I will try to find something official to cite.

    Anyhow, I know you're the first to stand up against idiots shooting their mouths off and that you weren't trying to perpetuate aything negative. I just know that many people do, so I tend to see it as a bit of a sticky subject, I guess.

    EDIT: P.S. I refer to Zoloft as my "crazy pills" w/ my wife, proof that I understand the mood you were getting at. I just tend to avoid doing that when there's a chance someone may take me too seriously, not that it makes me right and you wrong... just different.
     
  17. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Well-said.

    That's an interesting point about the seratonin levels in mentally healthy people who have committed suicide, but what I found in case-studies is that most of those types of scenarios were situational. Which is why I mentioned specifically non-situational chemical imbalance. Seratonin can be affected by so many things, and suicide is often a resort of people who feel they're in a situation for which there is no viable escape. They lost their job and had a mortgage and child support to pay, and alimony, or they risked everything they own on a business venture and it fell through, their loved-one shows hatred towards them, or their child does.

    But this is the same debate you have with the temporary insanity defense, or mental defect or disease in Court. It can go back and forth all the time. I just like to have a little more faith in people than that. I'm more into theraputic means of recovery, dealing with issues through discussion, exploration, discipline, focus, etc. It tends to be a longer process, and more cathartic, often pushing the bounds of a person's psyche, but if the person can endure and the person administering the therapy can as well then it usually works. I'll cite an example that happened by pure chance:

    I had a friend who seemed to have a devout superiority complex. For years he belittled me, and took every chance he could to prove he was smarter than me. But he never stepped across certain lines because he respected my cunning and my physical abilities. He knew I was perceptive, but he had me on book-knowledge. There was a period of like a year we didn't speak, got back together, and the same shit went down. Then one day it all built to a head. I don't even remember what we got into it over but I had had enough of his be-littling. He decided he had had enough of my being physically dominant being what held him back. He attacked, I got him down and into a choke. He said if I let him up he'd kill me. I asked him if he was serious. He said he was. I believed him.

    I told him to give me one reason not to end him right then and there. I pushed more with my forearm on his neck until I heard a gurgle. I told him no one, not anyone ever threatens my life. If he was willing to change his mind he'd better do it now. He broke down. I let him up and asked him why he went that far. I asked him why he was like this. Why did he always fight me, always push so much. He said he needed help, that it was his Family. That day, he told myself and our other closest friend (who happens to post here as well), everything, finally let us in.

    Now, he's like a brother to me. He opened up, and is now one of the most well-adjusted people I know. Stable job, wife, kid, all is well. He even helps out his Family and has reached a level of forgiveness with them. It was a long tough road, but I was willing to go down it with him and never abandon. See him through even if it meant my life, confront the issues no matter what it took. And in the end it was worth it. Right now I have not a sliver of doubt if I need him all I have to do is call, and he knows the same. It goes without saying.

    I know there are people this doesn't apply to, but those are IMO the types I mentioned. The ones where the psychosis is induced by a chemical reaction that is abnormal in the brain, not based on response to a situation. The exception of this actually usually is sociopathy in children. Usually they're products of their environments, becoming devoid of human emotion by seeing things their minds aren't conditioned to understand yet.

    I could go on about this stuff forever...
     
  18. Chad Hamilton

    Chad Hamilton Amateur Fighter

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    King-

    I'm a certified Bach demonstrator.

    Fat Joint > Rescue Remedy, but not by much.
     
  19. fat_wilhelm

    fat_wilhelm Black Belt

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    Nice story... I'm glad it worked out the way it did. More often than not, it seems a situation has to reach such levels before progress can be made.

    I guess what makes the topic so interesting to me is the vast unknown that is involved. Part of the reason I feel like depression can be tagged as uncontrollable is my own sitution. There was nothing situational going on in my life to make me depressed or anxious. Even looking back, I can say that now. However, I am extremely obsessive compulsive and always have been. As a kid, if I crossed an intersection, I'd have to run to each of the four points of the intersection before moving on. I had tons of silly rituals like this and I justified it to my parents by saying "the criss-cross boss makes me do it".

    As I got older, my rituals became less outwardly outlandish, but still there. Even today, I count patterns of numbers in my head without even noticing. It sounds really odd to people -- my friends think it's hysterical -- but, to me, it's just part of how I function. It's like I'm operating in the background while I'm still able to do what I have to do on a day-to-day basis w/o even noticing the counting or whatever it may be at any given time.

    A couple years ago, my OCD bagan to manifest in the form of impending self-doom. In my mind, I was dying... I had everything from MS to heart problems to a brain aneurysm that was going to burst at any moment. I saw several doctors... had a brain MRI ordered by one, explained how my fingers were going numb to another, etc., etc. The symptoms were, in fact real. They may not have been caused by anything more than my mind, but they were there.

    Anyhow, all these thoughts of sickness resulted in fairly severe depression and anxiety. I would lay in bed at night and break into a cold sweat as I tried to grasp the concept of not exisiting. At work, I'd get on the internet and read up on whatever illness I was afflicted w/ that day and have to run out to my car to call my mom or wife to calm myself down. Finally, it was my wife who convinced me I needed to talk to someone. She was quickly becoming miserable having to watch what was going on. If it had only been my own misery, I probably would have tried (unsuccessfully) to fight it on my own forever.

    The doctor I saw was really great, and I did go the therapeutic route, as well, but she believed that symptoms of OCD, such as the ones I had (which anyone would have viewed as depression and anxiety) were best handled with medicine since it is widely believed that OCD is in the brain. My dosage is very low. It doesn't stop the counting or other little rituals that I view as being harmless (I wouldn't want them stopped -- it's part of who I am), but it does enable me to control the extremes. Now, if I'm in bed and start thinking about death, which, incidentally, has always been my biggest fear, I'm able to remain somewhat calm and understand the reality of what's happening.

    I don't know if you've seen the documentary on HBO called "I Have Tourette's But Tourette's Doesn't Have Me", but it's very interesting if you haven't checked it out. http://www.hbofamily.com/programs/whole_family/tourettes.html A documentary like this explains why I feel there are uncontollable cases of anxiety and depression. There is something chemical triggering what these kids do, and often times, the inability to deal w/ the rituals ends up as full-blown depression. Perhaps the definition of what depression really is and how it is brought on is what we all can't agree upon.

    At any rate, there are so many different factors that control the way each person behaves that this topic could probably be debated ad nauseum w/ no real answers in the end. I think it's why I enjoy reading it so much.

    Thanks for the story and the posts, in general.
     
  20. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Ahh, see I like discussions like this because they bring about things in a little more depth.

    Did you have OCD before you had depression? Because they often are coupled together, and it would make sense that in your case the depression would be less controllable. OCD is a serious affliction in many cases and is very very difficult to contain without medication. And the Tourette's cases are similar.

    In those cases the depression is a symptom of a larger affliction. In cases where depression is stand-alone it's a little bit different usually, but again there are exceptions.

    I had one case-study of this girl in New York who was a bonafide Schizophrenic. When I say bonafide I do so because a lot of people think they know what schizophrenia is and don't. And a lot of people claim schizophrenia and are not. There's a distinct difference between saying "I hear voices" and it's your conscience. As opposed to what true schizophrenics deal with. This girl though, went most of her life non-medicated. She just reached some point of Zen somehow, and taught herself to tune-out the voices. Imagine that, walking around hearing voices (most of them almost demonic in-nature) and being able to just ignore it and function properly. She did this for a trademark reason many schizophrenics become transients, because the medicine is almost debilitating itself. Anti-psychotics tend to be monumentally powerful, and most patients describe being under the influence of them as trying to live a normal life while walking through quicksand, or while being smothered with a pillow at all times.

    Anyhow, so she learned to ignore them. Which someone could argue that it basically cured her. However, the trade-off was depression, deep depression for having to walk around every day all day in a constant state of ignoring and denial. At having to put that much effort into everyday life.

    I can agree that in cases like this, the depression is basically un-controllable until the main affliction is properly treated. If that's even possible. Sometimes it isn't.
     

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