Pride Wand vs Pride Little Nog

[Goodfella86]

I would have given the edge to lil Nog at pretty much any point in their career. I don't think he'd get tagged/dropped by Wand's sloppy offense. . . but don't see Nog taking down or being able to keep Wandi down or sub him. Would be a cool fight, but I suspect a decision either way.

On the topic of "cool-but-never-happened", toward Pride's end there was at one point a push for Wandy vs Vovchanchyn. Who you got on that one, prime vs prime?

I've got Concussion via Violence in round 1. Prime vs. Prime, I'll go Igor. And, at PRIDE 34, I didn't think either guy was too durable, so I couldn't tell you who would've won.

How about you?

 

[JohnMandick]

My brain says lil nog, but my losing betting streak says Wandy.

 

[Stump]

Lil Nog all the way.

Lil Nog battering and bludgeoning Tito to the body for the TKO finish was one of the best moments in MMA history.

 

[Natural Order]

Lil Nog had substantially better boxing fundamentals than Wanderlei Silva. That doesn't matter though sometimes, especially when the guy without them throws haymakers hooks for days and is a savage berserker.

Both guys very hittable, would have been a fun fight when both were prime in Pride.

 

[Bullitt68]

The Shogun comparisons are obvious and valid to a point, but young Shogun was wild and sloppy, Wand was wild but never sloppy. His aggression was always technical and controlled. Rogerio had sound boxing and he could've hit Wand with some nice counter punches, but if Wand fought disciplined and used low kicks on the outside and then punches and knees whenever Rogerio tried to clinch and wrestle, I could see him scoring enough to create openings for his power punches. Rogerio also wasn't as durable as his brother, so while I wouldn't expect Wand to KO him, I also wouldn't be surprised if he managed it. Meanwhile, Rogerio didn't have the same kind of wrestling as Tito or Arona nor was he as strong or as stable from on top, so even if he managed to take Wand down, I think that Wand would've been able to scramble and get back to his feet.

I'd have to give the edge to Wand, but whether he managed to stop Rogerio or just win on the cards, it'd be a tough and competitive fight for sure.

 

[Lee Danger]

Lil Nog used to be really good, he'd be elite material even for today's standards.
Big Wand's fan here but he loses this fight.

 

[Qays Stetkevich]

I've got Concussion via Violence in round 1. Prime vs. Prime, I'll go Igor. And, at PRIDE 34, I didn't think either guy was too durable, so I couldn't tell you who would've won.

How about you?

I think Igor's hands/chin combo are stronger than Wandy's, and Igor had way more defense than Wandy, too. It would be an absolute banger regardless of outcome though. That being said, I think both Igor's hands were broken and had recurring problems, so they hypothetical Pride 34 probably wouldn't go his way.

 

[DrRodentia]

I would have given the edge to lil Nog at pretty much any point in their career. I don't think he'd get tagged/dropped by Wand's sloppy offense. . . but don't see Nog taking down or being able to keep Wandi down or sub him. Would be a cool fight, but I suspect a decision either way.

On the topic of "cool-but-never-happened", toward Pride's end there was at one point a push for Wandy vs Vovchanchyn. Who you got on that one, prime vs prime?

I think the ref would have had to have been very careful of not getting two close during the punching exchanges.

 

[WoozyFailGuy]

Lil Nog never really got his proper time to shine. One of the best to never touch gold.

 

[Pitier of Fools]

I would have given the edge to lil Nog at pretty much any point in their career. I don't think he'd get tagged/dropped by Wand's sloppy offense. . . but don't see Nog taking down or being able to keep Wandi down or sub him. Would be a cool fight, but I suspect a decision either way.

On the topic of "cool-but-never-happened", toward Pride's end there was at one point a push for Wandy vs Vovchanchyn. Who you got on that one, prime vs prime?

Prime Igor would flatline Wandy.

 

[TheNinja]

I’m more of a fan of the nogs but Wandy takes it. He was unstoppable in his prime.

 

[Pancake Sprawl]

i think a lot of people have never actually seen a Prime Wand fight. watching the gifs or highlights are not the same. this guy dropped a Killer Instinct Ultra combo to defeat Rampage. there's nobody in today's LHW division that would be be able to sustain that amount of explosive strikes over that amount of time and not even break a sweat. steroids, sure, but everyone acts like all the fighters are on steroids anyway so it shouldn't matter that much.

his aggro style is exciting but it's the fact that he never got tired and could explode with +20 strike combos like normal people drop 3 piece combos is what made him scary, the savagery of his attacks was just icing on the cake. not even other Chute Boxe guys were like him.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

i think a lot of people have never actually seen a Prime Wand fight. watching the gifs or highlights are not the same. this guy dropped a Killer Instinct Ultra combo to defeat Rampage. there's nobody in today's LHW division that would be be able to sustain that amount of explosive strikes over that amount of time and not even break a sweat. steroids, sure, but everyone acts like all the fighters are on steroids anyway so it shouldn't matter that much.

his aggro style is exciting but it's the fact that he never got tired and could explode with +20 strike combos like normal people drop 3 piece combos is what made him scary, the savagery of his attacks was just icing on the cake. not even other Chute Boxe guys were like him.

Wouldn't it be way more likely that less people have seen Nogueira fight? Wanderlei Silva is significantly more popular and watched than Nogueira is.

 

[Pancake Sprawl]

Wouldn't it be way more likely that less people have seen Nogueira fight? Wanderlei Silva is significantly more popular and watched than Nogueira is.

it's both. what i'm saying is you can't get the breadth of Wand's ability by just seeing the highlights. you have to see him fight Arona, Cro Cop etc., people think he's just going to get counterpunched by Lil Nog but ok, let's say that's true. what then? are they expecting him to KO Wand? because i have a hard time believing that. not with 1 punch. Mark Hunt and Mirko are good strikers too and Cro Cop had a difficult time the first time vs Wand. Mark Hunt also had a difficult time vs Wand. vs Oyama, Mezger, and Hendo the first time he got dropped by those guys but recovered when they couldn't follow up. if those guys couldn't KO him with 1 punch i doubt Lil Nog would.

the good thing i'll give to Lil Nog is he had a decent left cross and it's a good punch against an ultra aggro Wand with zero head movement and comes in squared up. Vitor got him like this. the problem is Vitor is much more athletic, explosive, and fast than Lil Nog is. i think Wand grinds Lil Nog up.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

it's both. what i'm saying is you can't get the breadth of Wand's ability by just seeing the highlights. you have to see him fight Arona, Cro Cop etc., people think he's just going to get counterpunched by Lil Nog but ok, let's say that's true. what then? are they expecting him to KO Wand? because i have a hard time believing that. not with 1 punch. Mark Hunt and Mirko are good strikers too and Cro Cop had a difficult time the first time vs Wand. Mark Hunt also had a difficult time vs Wand. vs Oyama, Mezger, and Hendo the first time he got dropped by those guys but recovered when they couldn't follow up. if those guys couldn't KO him with 1 punch i doubt Lil Nog would.

the good thing i'll give to Lil Nog is he had a decent left cross and it's a good punch against an ultra aggro Wand with zero head movement and comes in squared up. Vitor got him like this. the problem is Vitor is much more athletic, explosive, and fast than Lil Nog is. i think Wand grinds Lil Nog up.

Crocop and Hunt are not counter-punchers though. Crocop in general is not a high volume puncher, and he did out punch Silva in the rematch with straight punches if I can recall.

Nogueira also has good grappling, and was able to submit Henderson. He wouldn't need to knock Silva out in one hit if he could hurt him and go for a submission, or even finish him for that matter.

Nogueira in general doesn't really try to finish his opponents. I dont think lack of finishing ability hurts him that much here, it's not his path to victory usually.

 

[Pancake Sprawl]

Crocop and Hunt are not counter-punchers though. Crocop in general is not a high volume puncher, and he did out punch Silva in the rematch with straight punches if I can recall.

Nogueira also has good grappling, and was able to submit Henderson. He wouldn't need to knock Silva out in one hit if he could hurt him and go for a submission, or even finish him for that matter.

Nogueira in general doesn't really try to finish his opponents. I dont think lack of finishing ability hurts him that much here, it's not his path to victory usually.

i think it does hurt him because the longer the fight goes the more attacks Wand gets. Arona had the benefit of being able to nullify Wand on the ground with his wrestling for long periods of time, Lil Nog doesn't. he's going to drop and submit Wand? i don't think he'd be able to do that either, because he's not like his brother is on the ground. he's way more of a striker and using his grappling to keep striking.

Hunt can counter punch. he even KO'd guys in K-1 like that, like Leko. Cro Cop too counter punch, that's how he did the majority of his damage vs Alexander Emelianenko, who was supposed to have good fast hands but had no footwork and Mirko just owned him. i don't even really think Lil Nog is that good of a counter puncher. to me, he's more of a volume striker.

i think it's possible the things you say, but i just think it's more likely Wand ruins him by being faster to start and more aggressive than Shogun.

 

[HHJ]

i think it does hurt him because the longer the fight goes the more attacks Wand gets. Arona had the benefit of being able to nullify Wand on the ground with his wrestling for long periods of time, Lil Nog doesn't. he's going to drop and submit Wand? i don't think he'd be able to do that either, because he's not like his brother is on the ground. he's way more of a striker and using his grappling to keep striking.

Hunt can counter punch. he even KO'd guys in K-1 like that, like Leko. Cro Cop too counter punch, that's how he did the majority of his damage vs Alexander Emelianenko, who was supposed to have good fast hands but had no footwork and Mirko just owned him.

Well Alex was super green when he fought Mirko. He had his "coming into his own" period, after that fight, and was alot leaner after.

 

[Pancake Sprawl]

Well Alex was super green when he fought Mirko. He had his "coming into his own" period, after that fight, and was alot leaner after.

one of the biggest what ifs in MMA history. i remember seeing a video of someone asking Fedor about Ivan and he was stoic but at least from the translation of the video, it seemed like he was hurt by the way he worded his answer. it was something like "i was never consulted about his career" and that he couldn't help Alex because he won't help himself, but he wishes his brothers to find their way. kind of sad. i guess Ivan too is fucked up in some way.

 

[HHJ]

one of the biggest what ifs in MMA history. i remember seeing a video of someone asking Fedor about Ivan and he was stoic but at least from the translation of the video, it seemed like he was hurt by the way he worded his answer. it was something like "i was never consulted about his career" and that he couldn't help Alex because he won't help himself, but he wishes his brothers to find their way. kind of sad. i guess Ivan too is fucked up in some way.

From what Fedor said, Ivan was too "unserious" to even get to a fight.

Fedor and Alex's relationship slowly deteriorated after 2008 and when he was convicted of rape, I dont think they have contact with each other as far as I know.

 

[moreorless87]

The Shogun comparisons are obvious and valid to a point, but young Shogun was wild and sloppy, Wand was wild but never sloppy. His aggression was always technical and controlled. Rogerio had sound boxing and he could've hit Wand with some nice counter punches, but if Wand fought disciplined and used low kicks on the outside and then punches and knees whenever Rogerio tried to clinch and wrestle, I could see him scoring enough to create openings for his power punches. Rogerio also wasn't as durable as his brother, so while I wouldn't expect Wand to KO him, I also wouldn't be surprised if he managed it. Meanwhile, Rogerio didn't have the same kind of wrestling as Tito or Arona nor was he as strong or as stable from on top, so even if he managed to take Wand down, I think that Wand would've been able to scramble and get back to his feet.

I'd have to give the edge to Wand, but whether he managed to stop Rogerio or just win on the cards, it'd be a tough and competitive fight for sure.

I would say Shogun in Pride was always ultra aggressive standing, always rushed people down ASAP and exchanged and took a lot of risks and as Wand actually the "windmilling" was actually less common during his peak Pride era, much of the time he could fight in a slower more tactical fashion before becoming very aggressive if he had someone in a bad position.

Technically I think a aggressive Shogun even back that he wasn't just an inaccurate brawler, there were some very accurate strikes mixed in with the aggression and generally he was just taking a lot of risks. Wand even moreso I think people really underestimate how accurate and dangerous his boxing could be, look at say the 3rd Saku fight KO or Tamura, a lot of Wand's finishes actually start with rocking someone with his boxing even if they end via knees, soccer kicks, stomps, etc.

Lil Nog was more technical than both of them but I think you could argue threw with less power and compared to Wand espeically he wasnt as quick so I could potentially see Silva catching him with the bigger shots although I thin as with his brother he would be very hard to overwhelm with aggression when hurt as we saw vs Shogun when he was knocked down.

On the ground as you say Lil Nog wasnt a wrestling monster, again like his brother I think his wrestling was pretty good offensively in his prime although he tended to work more in the clinch compared to Big Nogs long shoots. Offencively he was a better sub grappler than Wand but Silva's sub defence was also VERY sound(to the degree he was not only never subbed but I can't even recall any situations were he was even in much danger of being subbed, maybe a bit of danger vs Saku the 2nd time? You could argue I spose Lil Nog ontop of him maybe a greater sub threat than Wand ever faced in his career. There is also the possibility that Wand takes Lil Nog down, don't think he'd be as effective with GnP as Shogun was but I could see him having some top control and being safe.

Maybe the biggest factor for me though would be ring smarts and the ability to pull out a win, technically Lil Nog was a beast up there with the very best ever at LHW but I never felt he had the same ability his brother did to pull out the win, he was I think that bit more passive which tended to let opponents fight the way they wanted to a bit more.