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Crime Pregnant Texas teenager died after being denied emergency abortion care

If those drs did their job she would still be alive.

But i shouldnt ctitise those directly involved because that is armchair qbing...

im sure you never critise police and drs.


Ummmm ivf shutting up shop? They have a tonne of clinics still open tho?



As of July, 2022, Texas's abortion laws do not specifically mention in vitro fertilization (IVF) or other fertility treatments.9 Sept 2024

Hi yeah, Texan here. That's the fucking problem you colossal dumbass. If an embryo is a human as defined by the law, it puts IVF in a grey area where they could be considered to be abortion providers since not every fetus is viable. And I know of 2 instances where state representatives have attempted to push the heartbeat bill onto IVF providers, one of which was a goddamn constitutional amendment which is even more fully retarded than the shit they're already doing.

In fact, we were one legal challenge from IVF being done in the state.

 
The issue is that its not clear. The bill prevent abortions after a fetal heartbeat is detected which is why they performed multiple ultrasounds, to check for the fetal heartbeat.
Indeed. I just have more disdain for the drs failures and have seen similar failures in my own system. That isnt political. Its just tragic mistakes.
The bill does carve out an exception even in these cases but you can see how the ambiguity might make doctors hesitate right? What constitutes a medical emergency? Is that always apparent before the patient dies? Shouldn't we expect that this will make doctors hesitant to perform medically necessary abortions? Especially when the attorney general of Texas, Ken Paxton, threatens legal action despite the fact that a judge ordered a Temporary Restraining Order(TRO) to allow such abortions?
The drs i have known wouldnt hesistate in the slightest. Paxton and the whole thing sounds like shit honestly
They are though, their law lead to this unnecessary death and it was exactly their intention to dissuade doctors from performing medically necessary abortions. That's why the Texas AG threatens doctors and hospitals with both civil and criminal liability. From the link cited above:
I would like to hear from the drs and co before coming to that conclusion personally, if one comes out and says its because of the bill. Im 100% on board ( dr should still get the axe imo )

I constantly get told to not assign meaning to things that mistakes and ineptitube can explain.



Btw im actually pro choice? I think. Lables i dont use often . Im fine with abortion within common reason. That 6 week heartbeat is ridiculous now ive read it.


[ i still despise the drs for their failure tho. Purposeful cowardice is far worse imo than mistakes to me ]
 
Hardcore religious people who impose hardcore religious rules on others?

Yes, I'd say that's what we're dealing with, wouldn't you?
I don’t think it’s all religion
There’s a humanist element as well
 
Even with this result, we have two muppets defending the law, and going through mental gymnastics to shift blame to the docs.

It boggles the mind.
Wait a second before you call people muppets (since you included me). The articles are saying missed diagnosis of sepsis. So if that’s true, then the right antibiotics given at the right time would have prevented the need for any type of medication induced abortion or surgical abortion.

I didn’t defend that law btw, but you did call me a muppet for blaming the docs. Sending someone home who meets SIRS criteria is often frowned upon when they come back and need an ICU admission.
 
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Indeed. I just have more disdain for the drs failures and have seen similar failures in my own system. That isnt political. Its just tragic mistakes.
In this case it is political though as a law exists which creates the possibility of criminal or civil liability and the current attorney general is threatening those penalties for doctors and hospitals that carry out abortions including life saving ones like the one Candace Fails needed.
The drs i have known wouldnt hesistate in the slightest. Paxton and the whole thing sounds like shit honestly

I would like to hear from the drs and co before coming to that conclusion personally, if one comes out and says its because of the bill. Im 100% on board ( dr should still get the axe imo )

I constantly get told to not assign meaning to things that mistakes and ineptitube can explain.



Btw im actually pro choice? I think. Lables i dont use often . Im fine with abortion within common reason. That 6 week heartbeat is ridiculous now ive read it.


[ i still despise the drs for their failure tho. Purposeful cowardice is far worse imo than mistakes to me ]
I think its pretty obvious what happened here. There's a reason they took multiple ultrasounds to check for the fetal heartbeat, its because that's the relevant detail in the anti-abortion law. Of course the doctors are in large part to blame here as this is their patient and they are responsible for them but I don't see why we have to pretend like the state level anti-abortion law and the threats towards doctors and hospitals from the state attorney general aren't relevant when they clearly are.
 
Hey so here’s a take
The fed govt had no business in the abortion business - Roe vs Wade was flawed because we are a republic and states rights do matter

If aborting fetuses is so important and you live in a state that has restrictive abortion laws you have options:
1. use birth control, there’s about 9’million options for BC for females
2 get a vasectomy
3 stop having unprotected sex
4 move to another state that is cool with vacuuming fetuses out of women’s wombs
5 make a big placard stating your displeasure at not being able to kill fetuses, stand on a street corner and scream like a Cicada about it
6 don’t fucking worry about it, you’re a man and don’t have a womb
7 don’t have heterosexual encounters
8 join a pro abortion women’s group and plow through the available females
9 virtue signal online in all caps about it , every chance you get
10 eat a whole pizza by yourself

It’s good to have options
 
10+ year ER/ICU RN here.

The term "qualifies for sepsis" means next to nothing. It means you had a high heart rate and a fever (typical presentation), which is normal for everything from a low grade fever from a cold, strep, to monkey pox. PS the HR just needs to be above 90.

In terms of the bleeding and what not, an OB asking for an ultrasound in that scenario would be gold standard. Of course you need an US to rule out/in fetal demise as well as know what else may be going on. You do not need an ultrasound specifically for a fetal demise, but, if you suspect one, you want a clear picture. You can just do fetal heart tones on mom which is a bedside task for a nurse that takes 2 minutes. The physician can also do a bedside ultrasound. The physician can also order an US by an US tech that takes maybe 20-30 minutes and can be done in the room at bedside in emergent situations.

In terms of the low blood pressure, that could be from septic shock, or because she was bleeding. I would guess the latter based on available information. Two problems can occur at once, of course.

Pregnant patients that present to emergency departments > 16 weeks, in some places greater than 20, are cleared by E.D. if it is a non-OB related complaint, then evaluated by labor and delivery before discharge. Sometimes they are cleared in ED and sent to L&D for OB related complaints such as lower back pain, abd pain, vaginal bleeding, etc.

There's a lot of layman and litigation talk in these articles covering it. Not something you can rely on in context to an expiration in the emergency department. L&D patients are highly litigious, so suing parties usually get a head start on the release of information.

In addition to that, three ER visits could be an ER problem or it could be a patient problem. I've often had patients that come in for a sore throat like an asshole and come back 3 hours later with chest pain and whoops they have a pulmonary embolism or myocardial infarction, etc. -- there's a reason ER's discharge people with strict return precautions. Even if they weren't going to go in and therapeutically abort a soon to be demise for a septic mother, she would still be admitted on sepsis protocol (which she wasn't because she didn't meet the criteria)...or, for vaginal bleeding, she would be admitted for obs due to the bleeding up to and including transfusions and serial H&H labs. Those first two visits did not present the same as the 3rd. Period.

This poppycock about not addressing medical concerns because of the law are largely hogwash from the articles I've read about this case. People like this receive blood transfusions and sepsis therapy all the time and there is plenty of time to get an ultrasound in the midst of that, which again, would be absolute gold/platinum standard care to do in any state, legal abortions or not. There's a lot of missing puzzle pieces here that will only be found out through courts with a complete and comprehensive review of the medical record as to why the first two visits went the way they did.

They're out in front of their skis with this story as it currently stands, probably due to the election timing.
 
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If those drs did their job she would still be alive.

But i shouldnt ctitise those directly involved because that is armchair qbing...

im sure you never critise police and drs.


Ummmm ivf shutting up shop? They have a tonne of clinics still open tho?



As of July, 2022, Texas's abortion laws do not specifically mention in vitro fertilization (IVF) or other fertility treatments.9 Sept 2024

The Doctors had no clear legal path to do their job because of the fetal heartbeat detected. The 3rd ER ordered ultrasounds to confirm the death of the fetus to make sure they could act, it was too late.

I criticize Police for not KNOWING the law, or for overzealous enforcement of laws that are blatantly unconstitutional (to which they swore an oath)...if the Cop has to enforce a stupid law, why would I criticize them unless they were just a d*ck about it? Once again you bring up something irrelevant to deflect from the core issue. You want the issue to solely be the Doctors, but it's not.

And yes, initially IVF clinics were stopping services because of the murky legal definitions, not because the laws mentioned them specifically. It wasn't until the Alabama SC ruling, and Gret Abbott reversing course a bit did IVF become medically safe to do in Texas without penalty of law. And it's still under scrutiny as anti-abortion advocates are still currently pressuring the legislature to declare that ANY fertilized embryo is a human being, whether inside the womb or out.
 
Hey so here’s a take
The fed govt had no business in the abortion business - Roe vs Wade was flawed because we are a republic and states rights do matter

Every time someone brings this up I'm going to mention the History of Roe again, because this is a misinformation argument. No one was ever against States' rights specifically...except one zealot AG in Texas. Roe was decided in favor of Roe by the Texas Supreme Court. The reason it ended up at the SCOTUS was because that AG couldnt tale his "L" and he thought the Conservative SCOTUS would agree with him that the State had a right to force women to carry pregnancies to term. However back then there were REAL "small Government Conservatives" about who understood that part of the Federal Government's job is to protect the citizenry from overzealous State tyrants, thus they ruled that the right to privacy protected you from your State deciding how many kids you HAVE to have. This was not a "liberal/leftist" concept. Both Roe and Casey were decided by majority conservative Courts.

And since then right wing zealots have convinced everyone this was some kind of leftist ideology to have more Federal Government LOL
 
Every time someone brings this up I'm going to mention the History of Roe again, because this is a misinformation argument. No one was ever against States' rights specifically...except one zealot AG in Texas. Roe was decided in favor of Roe by the Texas Supreme Court. The reason it ended up at the SCOTUS was because that AG couldnt tale his "L" and he thought the Conservative SCOTUS would agree with him that the State had a right to force women to carry pregnancies to term. However back then there were REAL "small Government Conservatives" about who understood that part of the Federal Government's job is to protect the citizenry from overzealous State tyrants, thus they ruled that the right to privacy protected you from your State deciding how many kids you HAVE to have. This was not a "liberal/leftist" concept. Both Roe and Casey were decided by majority conservative Courts.

And since then right wing zealots have convinced everyone this was some kind of leftist ideology to have more Federal Government LOL
Doesn’t change the basic fact that it’s up to the states and the fed should have never been involved
 
Doesn’t change the basic fact that it’s up to the states and the fed should have never been involved

Yes it does. Because the State decided for itself and the SCOTUS only got involved because far right zealots dont give a f*ck about States' rights unless it aligns with their ideological outlook.

The "States' Rights" argument was never at the center of this, it's a ruse.
 
10+ year ER/ICU RN here.

The term "qualifies for sepsis" means next to nothing. It means you had a high heart rate and a fever (typical presentation), which is normal for everything from a low grade fever from a cold, strep, to monkey pox. PS the HR just needs to be above 90.

In terms of the bleeding and what not, an OB asking for an ultrasound in that scenario would be gold standard. Of course you need an US to rule out/in fetal demise as well as know what else may be going on. You do not need an ultrasound specifically for a fetal demise, but, if you suspect one, you want a clear picture. You can just do fetal heart tones on mom which is a bedside task for a nurse that takes 2 minutes. The physician can also do a bedside ultrasound. The physician can also order an US by an US tech that takes maybe 20-30 minutes and can be done in the room at bedside in emergent situations.

In terms of the low blood pressure, that could be from septic shock, or because she was bleeding. I would guess the latter based on available information. Two problems can occur at once, of course.

Pregnant patients that present to emergency departments > 16 weeks, in some places greater than 20, are cleared by E.D. if it is a non-OB related complaint, then evaluated by labor and delivery before discharge. Sometimes they are cleared in ED and sent to L&D for OB related complaints such as lower back pain, abd pain, vaginal bleeding, etc.

There's a lot of layman and litigation talk in these articles covering it. Not something you can rely on in context to an expiration in the emergency department. L&D patients are highly litigious, so suing parties usually get a head start on the release of information.

In addition to that, three ER visits could be an ER problem or it could be a patient problem. I've often had patients that come in for a sore throat like an asshole and come back 3 hours later with chest pain and whoops they have a pulmonary embolism or myocardial infarction, etc. -- there's a reason ER's discharge people with strict return precautions. Even if they weren't going to go in and therapeutically abort a soon to be demise for a septic mother, she would still be admitted on sepsis protocol (which she wasn't because she didn't meet the criteria)...or, for vaginal bleeding, she would be admitted for obs due to the bleeding up to and including transfusions and serial H&H labs. Those first two visits did not present the same as the 3rd. Period.

This poppycock about not addressing medical concerns because of the law are largely hogwash from the articles I've read about this case. People like this receive blood transfusions and sepsis therapy all the time and there is plenty of time to get an ultrasound in the midst of that, which again, would be absolute gold/platinum standard care to do in any state, legal abortions or not. There's a lot of missing puzzle pieces here that will only be found out through courts with a complete and comprehensive review of the medical record as to why the first two visits went the way they did.

They're out in front of their skis with this story as it currently stands, probably due to the election timing.
Appreciate the details
 
10+ year ER/ICU RN here.

The term "qualifies for sepsis" means next to nothing. It means you had a high heart rate and a fever (typical presentation), which is normal for everything from a low grade fever from a cold, strep, to monkey pox. PS the HR just needs to be above 90.

In terms of the bleeding and what not, an OB asking for an ultrasound in that scenario would be gold standard. Of course you need an US to rule out/in fetal demise as well as know what else may be going on. You do not need an ultrasound specifically for a fetal demise, but, if you suspect one, you want a clear picture. You can just do fetal heart tones on mom which is a bedside task for a nurse that takes 2 minutes. The physician can also do a bedside ultrasound. The physician can also order an US by an US tech that takes maybe 20-30 minutes and can be done in the room at bedside in emergent situations.

In terms of the low blood pressure, that could be from septic shock, or because she was bleeding. I would guess the latter based on available information. Two problems can occur at once, of course.

Pregnant patients that present to emergency departments > 16 weeks, in some places greater than 20, are cleared by E.D. if it is a non-OB related complaint, then evaluated by labor and delivery before discharge. Sometimes they are cleared in ED and sent to L&D for OB related complaints such as lower back pain, abd pain, vaginal bleeding, etc.

There's a lot of layman and litigation talk in these articles covering it. Not something you can rely on in context to an expiration in the emergency department. L&D patients are highly litigious, so suing parties usually get a head start on the release of information.

In addition to that, three ER visits could be an ER problem or it could be a patient problem. I've often had patients that come in for a sore throat like an asshole and come back 3 hours later with chest pain and whoops they have a pulmonary embolism or myocardial infarction, etc. -- there's a reason ER's discharge people with strict return precautions. Even if they weren't going to go in and therapeutically abort a soon to be demise for a septic mother, she would still be admitted on sepsis protocol (which she wasn't because she didn't meet the criteria)...or, for vaginal bleeding, she would be admitted for obs due to the bleeding up to and including transfusions and serial H&H labs. Those first two visits did not present the same as the 3rd. Period.

This poppycock about not addressing medical concerns because of the law are largely hogwash from the articles I've read about this case. People like this receive blood transfusions and sepsis therapy all the time and there is plenty of time to get an ultrasound in the midst of that, which again, would be absolute gold/platinum standard care to do in any state, legal abortions or not. There's a lot of missing puzzle pieces here that will only be found out through courts with a complete and comprehensive review of the medical record as to why the first two visits went the way they did.

They're out in front of their skis with this story as it currently stands, probably due to the election timing.
Appreciate the post. One thing I’d add:

A lot of hospitals have protocols when someone meets sepsis criteria to avoid stuff like this. Because yeah it could mean a lot of things, but further testing and monitoring can determine if this person is truly septic. It sounds like this hospital didn’t any?

It’s been a while since I did any hospital or ER work, but remember all the sepsis protocols that would pop up with order sets I’d have to sign as a resident. And if I didn’t sign them fast enough nurses would be stat paging me
 
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Every time someone brings this up I'm going to mention the History of Roe again, because this is a misinformation argument. No one was ever against States' rights specifically...except one zealot AG in Texas. Roe was decided in favor of Roe by the Texas Supreme Court. The reason it ended up at the SCOTUS was because that AG couldnt tale his "L" and he thought the Conservative SCOTUS would agree with him that the State had a right to force women to carry pregnancies to term. However back then there were REAL "small Government Conservatives" about who understood that part of the Federal Government's job is to protect the citizenry from overzealous State tyrants, thus they ruled that the right to privacy protected you from your State deciding how many kids you HAVE to have. This was not a "liberal/leftist" concept. Both Roe and Casey were decided by majority conservative Courts.

And since then right wing zealots have convinced everyone this was some kind of leftist ideology to have more Federal Government LOL



I’ve noticed this talking point a lot amongst the extreme right. Thanks for clarifying I actually didn’t know that.


From what I see saying it’s pushed back to the states just seems like they know it’s deeply unpopular position to hold and to escape the fallout of that position they deflect to the states
 
I’ve noticed this talking point a lot amongst the extreme right. Thanks for clarifying I actually didn’t know that.


From what I see saying it’s pushed back to the states just seems like they know it’s deeply unpopular position to hold and to escape the fallout of that position they deflect to the states

States' Rights arguments in the US have almost exclusively been used to relegate people to 2nd class citizenship. They were used with slavery, segregation, gay marriage, abortion, etc. Black people, gay people, women.
 
States' Rights arguments in the US have almost exclusively been used to relegate people to 2nd class citizenship. They were used with slavery, segregation, gay marriage, abortion, etc. Black people, gay people, women.


I actually had a kid tell me in middle school that our texts books were wrong about civil war, it was over states rights not slavery. Still makes me chuckle
 
Are you completely insane?

Politics killed this girl.
I agree with this statement.

Neither party wants to come to a conclusion when it comes to this political hot potato.

Both sides see abortion as a money maker for their cofers. Both sides see abortion as a wedge issue to get their base emotional.

Heck, if Roe v Wade was codified when the Dems had the WH and Congress, we wouldn't have to see 80% of political ads on TV about abortion being on the ballot, women's rights on the ballot, etc.

Funny thing is that if Trump says he is pro choice, he would probably gain more votes than he would lose.


This death is a tragedy because both sides want to keep the issue going
 
Appreciate the post. One thing I’d add:

A lot of hospitals have protocols when someone meets sepsis criteria to avoid stuff like this. Because yeah it could mean a lot of things, but further testing and monitoring can determine if this person is truly septic. It sounds like this hospital didn’t any?

It’s been a while since I did any hospital or ER work, but remember all the sepsis protocols that would pop up with order sets I’d have to sign as a resident. And if I didn’t sign them fast enough nurses would be stat paging me

There's no way of knowing whether the hospital did or didn't follow the CMS guidelines for sepsis at this point, that'll be figured out in court. Mostly because we don't know if she just had a couple SIRS criteria, or if she qualified for severe sepsis, or septic shock, etc. - certainly on the 3rd visit she would have even if the causative diagnosis wasn't actually sepsis but hemorrhaging. We also don't know her initial chief complaints/presentations the first two times, the triage notes/vitals, all the things that would allow us to objectively deconstruct the emergency visit and disposition. That's why I mentioned all this layman article silliness that's reported from one side is not very reliable or informative at this point. It seems axe grindy to me.

They may have very well done labs and a lactic and cultures (cultures take a few days) and everything came back unremarkable or minimally remarkable. She got diagnosed with strep, so she was likely given antibiotics for home. The hospital could also be shitty. The doctor could have been shitty. The fetal heart rate could have had an impact due to the new law. What I'd assert is that the timing of this reporting and the language is indicative that the people writing it are certainly rooting for that.

In case anyone is wondering why this sepsis thing is such a hang up, is because "qualifying for sepsis" is a very broad term. People without infectious process at all "qualify for sepsis" all the time every day, including during exercise (based on the symptoms, I mean). There are CMS recommended guidelines for treatment of the various stages of sepsis

Medical_Sepsis.jpg


sepsis-steps.png




In addition to that, based on the above criteria, the treatment recommendations are as follows.

example-of-a-health-system-consensu_2.png


So the devil is in the details on the objective data upon each visit. I'd proceed with caution with reading layman articles where we only have half or less than half of the story. Believe it or not, too, mother's die from fetal demise in states where abortions are encouraged, too.
 
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